this post was submitted on 29 Dec 2023
80 points (100.0% liked)

games

20040 readers
1 users here now

Tabletop, DnD, board games, and minecraft. Also Animal Crossing.

Rules

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

This discourse was going around twitter today apparently and im curious takes from here.

Which is it for you?

For me i prefer playersexuality. I want to be able to romance any romance option regardless of my charachters gender. I dont want to be stuck with only Arcade Gannon if i want to do m/m

I agree that sexuality can be important to a charachter. But if you wanna do that, seems like the charachter can just not be a romance option.

That said. In RPGs devs can do what they want. You want a charachter to be monosexual and a romance option, have at it. (Unless theyre all straight, then fuck you).

I do kinda hate what The Sims did by adding monosexuality. Felt like such a virtue signal that made the game less fun. All Sims being pansexual was always more fun for me. Especially since i usually play that game as a pansexual slut. Unless i decide my player Sim is mono, but thats on the player's end.

Monosexual townies in the Sims should at least be optional (is it? Idk havent played Sims 4 since this update).

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 46 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

I think it's honestly better to view it through the lens of it being a game design tool moreso than a philosophical debate. If you want to emphasize player choice and freedom, playersexual. If you want to emphasize characterization and worldbuilding, set sexuality.

If you're going to incorporate dating sim components into your game, it's generally better to lean towards playersexual. Otherwise, you run into a sort of zugzwang where you can
a) lock romance options to het (e.g. Persona) and alienate queer people, even worse when you don't have a gender option which also alienates 50% of said hets, or
b) have set sexuality and allow some queer relationships with certain characters (e.g. Fire Emblem: Three Houses) but have people annoyed about the arbitrariness of it, especially when there are no characters that cannot be romanced in a heterosexual way but limited queer options.

I think there's space for set sexuality, especially in linear, narrative-driven RPGs (e.g. Final Fantasy, Undertale, Zelda). Set sexuality really works when you want to emphasize relationships between characters that the protagonist/player character is not party to (e.g. alphys-anxious undyne-owo) Furthermore, set sexuality, when there is a romance mechanic, best works when you establish a boundary between player and character.

Ultimately, it's a choice of what you want to grant to the player, as well as the distance between the player and the protagonist. If you want to let the player choose between characters to romance in the game, and that's an aspect that is a design component within the game, you're usually better off sticking to playersexual, unless you want to take a hyperrealistic angle to it. If you don't want to incorporate that aspect into your game, there's genuinely no need, stick to set sexuality. If you want to establish the protagonist as a character that exists outside of the player embodying them, lean towards set sexuality.

I honestly am just tired of romance being attached as a weird afterthought to certain RPGs. It's sterile when it's not handled with a modicum of care, and it definitely cements the whole unease-inducing 'escapist power fantasy' vibe you get in RPGs that take this approach alongside emphasizing openness. If you're gonna let me date, let me date. If not, why bother?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

there is no reason why I should not be able to date Yusuke Kitagawa aubrey-rage-cry

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Someone needs to make a rogue like dating game and that person is me.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 35 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Now I feel weird because the discussions here are great, in depth, and nuanced, but the way I feel about this is kinda boring and uncomplicated? Am I missing something?

If I'm playing a customized character that I made, I prefer characters to be playersexual, allowing custom relationships to match my custom character.

If I'm playing as a written character and experiencing a set story, it is better for all characters to be written well, and have realistic sexualities, as part of the story presented.

As far as representation goes, I think both can have problems, but neither are inextricably problematic.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

basically i want good queer characters whose queerness isn't ignorable and is a notable facet of their lives. i think playersexual characters are often a copout, where they write a heterosexual character and then let them date the mc, but if they're textually bi or pan or ace or something than it's fine by me. just make sure they aren't consistently het except for the mc i hate that shit

like i see people talking fire emblem. dorothea is into women! it's very simple to make the playersexual thing work, just have good writing

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I actually can't even remember the last time a video game character was actually bi or pan rather than just player sexual and that sucks.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 months ago (1 children)

k-pain I just want to be gay with Garrus and lesbian with Tali

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (2 children)

In Wrath of the Righteous, the one female love interest only available to male PCs is a flesh-eating serial killer, which should be the standard for romancable heterosexual characters.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 10 months ago (3 children)

BG3 but every character has a lil bi flag badge hexbear-bi-2

Surely I'm not the only one who finds "romance" options in games to be profoundly weird, though? I feel like the game-y mechanics do not rub up well against what is meant to be a relationship...

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago

I like both for different reasons. If it's important to a character's design and story or if the devs want to represent a specific identity, fixed is obviously the way. If it's not, then playersexual is fine I guess. In the case of a playersexual character though, people should feel free to project their identities—after all, they're working with what is pretty much an open canvas. A character might be playersexual in the broad sense, but that doesn't mean I can't interpret them as a lesbian, for example.

I also think that if what you're aiming for is realism, NPC identities should reflect that in various ways. Getting rejected by Panam (straight) in Cyberpunk 2077 only to recover and go on to date Judy (lesbian) added a lot of depth to my Vi.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Every character should be Bi-winning if you play a woman and gay if you play a man. Just to really piss off the Gamers.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

In a perfect world where more game writers weren't annoying dipshits who see writing gay or even bi characters as beneath them, romance options with defined sexualities would be no issue.

In this world I have been burned one too many times playing a game with romance options where the heterosexual romance options are with the characters who are plot relevant and have the most content and the gay and bi options are the side characters who have less content, sometimes explicitly because they're the ones who can get killed off for fun (THIS IS ABOUT YOU BIOWARE I AM SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT YOU, YOU PIECE OF SHIT HACK FRAUDS FUCK YOU)

yeah no, just give me playersexual characters every time, even in ths cases where the devs make it clear they were written with straight relationships as the implied default (Stardew Valley....)

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (2 children)

(THIS IS ABOUT YOU BIOWARE I AM SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT YOU, YOU PIECE OF SHIT HACK FRAUDS FUCK YOU)

i remember they did it right with jade empire, and even included male bisexuality and throuples. then they got scared of fox news and cut gay carth from mass effect

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago

They've still done it as recently as Mass Effect Andromeda, the original gay male options were a choice between either a genuinely HORRENDOUS side character storyline and a cool side character with no content.

They only added in a gay male romance with a plot relevant character in a god damn update patch.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I agree that characters with deliberate and well-written sexualities would be ideal, but on the other hand “bisexual chaos world” also sounds pretty rad. Is it possible to have both?

[–] [email protected] 26 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Technically BG3 is that. On some forum like 15 years ago, Ed Greenwood said that bisexuality is the default in the Forgotten Realms setting.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago

Either can be good, I did like how in DA:I you can flirt with Cassandra as a woman and she awkwardly takes you aside after a while to tell you that she is in fact straight (and crushed my heart forever kitty-cri-potato ) the same with Dorian, though he's the aggressive flirt in that case.

Then in Mass Effect it just doesnt really even make sense, honestly. Like you're completely different species, in some cases you cant even kiss properly for fear of allergic reactions and you're still stuck on some arbitrary gender binary romances? Live a little, goddamn.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago

I think this problem exists primarily in the shadow of games historically being written mostly by and for straight men. Games that break this trend, like Baldur's Gate 3, are right now remarkable for it, but once this is the norm the problems of both choices mostly disappear.

But while we are stuck in the present with everyone being bi, I wouldn't mind the characters actually saying "I am bisexual" once in a while.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (2 children)

In games where PC has a well defined personality and is distinct from the player it makes sense to have their sexuality fixed as part of the story, but in open ended RPGs that try to give the player as much choice as possible and blur the distinction between the player and the character, a set sexuality just comes across as lazy writing. I can set myself up as a fire-breathing lizard person with the highest cheekbones in history but the male characters are totally claws-off? That's dumb.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don’t understand your reasoning here. Are you arguing that the player character should be flexible if it’s an RPG? If so I agree. But if you’re arguing that all NPCs should be flexible just because you get to be a flexible, fantastical character, I don’t understand that logic. The character is YOU, other characters should have their own preferences. I don’t see how it’s lazy to add restrictions to other characters instead of letting everyone be potentially attracted to you

I largely don’t care about which design is present, but I find the arguments against fixed sexualities to be unconvincing.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Hot Take maybe; Player-sexuality as the norm is probably inevitable as more of these games tend towards adding mixed and diverse gender options. No developer wants to be the one deciding what combinations of body types, genders, pronouns, voices etc etc falls under 'available to lesbian romance option' or 'available to straight male flirting'.

That said, my preference is still set sexuality. Especially the more grounded a setting. Judy from Cyberpunk (recency bias am I right) for example likely wouldn't feel as real a character to me without the history of messy lesbian situation-ships thing she has going on.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

It depends on the goal of the game and the narrative it is trying to portray. It the character in the game is supposed to be a representation of the player in the game world, then it's only fair for the player to decide their own sexuality. If the character is a set character in the game with their own narrative/backstory, they should have their own sexuality and the player should not be able to change it. This requires competent writing though, which is rare in video games.

As for the NPCs which the player can romance, again that depends on how in depth and good the writing is. If the writing and lore is shallow, just let the NPCs be bisexual or pansexual and let the player romance who they want. If there is in depth narrative, good writing and worldbuilding with regards to NPCs, they should have a set sexuality that the player must respect.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I remember making a thread about this a year ago.

Honestly, even with the common pitfalls, I would still take specific sexualities over playersexual characters. Playersexual absolutely never feels authentic at all, it feels hollow and like I am just headcanoning the relationship. For me to feel like queer representation is done right, I honestly want it to reflect what actual lived experiences of queer people are, and that does include the fact that not everyone that I could be romantically attracted to will ever be able to reciprocate that feeling. It feels that much better when you actually do find someone who can. Why have I found VNs where gay people clearly outnumber the straights at least two-to-one (and where somehow homophobia still exists despite that???), that somehow still represent that experience better than the average video game? I can understand people wanting escapism and do somewhat enjoy having the extra selection from playersexual setups (I would be devastated if Halsin was strictly straight), but like, sometimes I just want an experience that is more relatable and cathartic. I'm also quite certain that most cishet game writers would probably assume playersexual is the default preference or the safer option so I feel comfortable pushing for characters having defined sexualities in hopes of getting a few games that do it well.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Tali was cute and gating her romance path behind the inferior male Shepard was not okay.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago

I haven't played a lot of really newer games so maybe things have changed, but in my experience playersexual romance options end up feeling like a straight person with a straight romance that's been genericized so any gender can be subbed in. Maybe the ideal would be having the dialogue and the way things play out depend on the player's gender? Although at that point I guess that crosses over into making all romance options explicitly bi/pan.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I personally think it's essential to have sexuality as a hard feature because it's a necessary component of writing properly developed characters.

I'm sorry but if everyone is a bisexual you are limiting yourself to the type of characters that you can write, because there are certain characters that just will not be bisexual. Or if you did make the white conservative cis male orthodox christian bisexual you are damn well going to have to write a lot of complexity into that character to square the circle. You are including many conflicting ideologies in that character and explaining them or representing the character's own torment with their conflicting sexuality vs ideology becomes a necessary part of the writing.

Features of characters force you into writing directions because a character having x but also y means either a, b or c but definitely not d. If you understand what I mean.

Your world and writing depth takes a necessary hit if you do this. What you end up with is a game that is unashamedly lgbt, I'm not complaining about that because I do love me some games that are just blatantly full of gay, but it's not all I want all the time.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I don't like playersexuality, because I prefer my gay and bi characters to actually have experience with (and reference their experiences with) homophobia, which is something that every gay and bi person ive ever met has had in common. A love story between gay characters that has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia is just a straight love story with one of the characters' genders swapped

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (16 children)

I get where youre coming from, but what if its a fantasy world where queerphobia doesnt exist? Seems nice for queer people to engage in some escapism where being queer isnt suffering.

load more comments (16 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

If we’re going to be dunking on playersexual, I do think we have to come to terms with the fact that character creation in general is kind of a trade off for writing quality, and that having a more generic experience is kind of the price you pay for a truly customizable character

I’m tempted to say it’s kind of a toss up of which is better when the character is customizable. Set sexuality is probably better there when it can be done without too much effort, but playersexual just makes sense and can probably be done well. When the character is preset, of course it should be a set sexuality, because the player character itself is already set. There’s no reason not to plan for it at that point.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

On top of all the very good points everyone else made in the thread, i want to throw my additional 2 cents in:

One of the reasons that playersexuality is so common is that straight players can pick their preference and then never see any of those icky queer people in their game at all (because in most games the amount of romance-able men is usually 1 and they won't hit on you if you don't go looking for it), whereas everyone else gets to "press the gay button to enable gay content".

The idea that making everyone bi is how BG3 cracked the code is misleading, BG3 allowed you to romance a crapload of men, and a lot of them hit on you incessantly, which is what gamers (that otherwise love playersexual games) hated. That was not playersexuality being good, that was just Larian giving you choice. In most playersexual games you still get stuck with the one sad gay male option and the five lesbian options that are just repurposed straight romances. Because 1) oh, gay men, ew, and 2) wow, lesbians, awooga. So, if what you care about is gay men, then in practice either option kinda sucks, and in principle playersexuality as done by non-cowards is mostly ok, i guess, because nobody can bring themselves to write more than the one gay man.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This is one of the few times when the gamers are right and we should just make it playersexual. I play games to do an escapism. I don't want to have every gay romance be an in-depth exploration of trauma and oppression in a hetero-dominant world. I want to go on gay adventures with my polycule of wacky characters, not be constantly reminded why my own life sucks as well.

You can remove the exploration of sexuality in their routes but then you have literally no reason for them to have set sexualities in the first place. It doesn't really come up in the story or have a reason beyond making you choose a different gender next go-around.

Of course if the game is designed to be an exploration of sexuality then that's different.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

I don't want to have every gay romance be an in-depth exploration of trauma and oppression in a hetero-dominant world. I want to go on gay adventures with my polycule of wacky characters, not be constantly reminded why my own life sucks as well.

I don’t see why everything has to be traumatic and dark. Or why it has to be an “exploration” of sexuality. Some people are just gay or straight or pan or whatever and don’t think too deeply about their preferences.

You (a man) hire bank robber to be your partner on heist -> you casually express romantic interest -> put on some rizz -> he becomes your lover and partner in crime

And that’s it. Not every queer character has to be some battered person. It’s definitely not reflective of reality in some areas of the world, but like you said… escapism. Plus it is reality for other people around the world.

Games like Stardew Valley (and recently Corral Island, or something like that?) have some of the most diverse cast of characters set in a rural farm setting lol. Name me a place where Arabs, Indians, Hispanics, East Asians, and white, rural people get along in an isolated, small farming community. I don’t think it does exist. Maybe it is alienating to see such an idealistic portrayal of your inclusion in a world/community that in reality would hate you, but at the same time, not everything has to be revived around those topics.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

Set sexuality is my initial preference. Games that handle this topic like Skyrim and Baldur’s Gate 3 don’t really have a lot to say about specific sexualities queer experiences, because they don’t want to alienate/make the player feel left out. One of the tweets mentions dragon age which is where I felt seen and heard for the first time. Another comment mentions it but in a game with well defined characters who have queer identities I can understand and want there to be restrictions. To say otherwise would be inauthentic to the story you’re trying to tell.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago

volcel-judge I know games are theoretically an art form but I don't really enjoy the vidya sex quests

Playersexual where required so I can play an ace character or pansexual on meth

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago

Whatever we decide here you are all clearly gamers and you should be ashamed

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (4 children)

i don't want to see what male g*mers (or devs) would do with canonically lesbain characters. theres no way that ends well in anything non-indie

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Didn't they mod a lesbian character in cyberpunk to be bi or something?

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (4 children)

As a queer polyam person, I want the game to be playersexual, and I want the game to allow me to romance everyone in the same playthrough. Doesn't matter what character I'm playing let me romance everyone all of the time thank you.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The answer is it depends on the game IMO. A game where you play a defined, scripted character like The Witcher ? I guess the criticism could make sense (even then I don't think it matters much).

A game like BG3 / most cRPGs where you create the character from scratch entirely ? anything goes IMO, it's your character, you decide its sexuality.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

No romance options because romance in games is cringe

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

But... I want to make girls love other girls :(

Also ngl its cringe af and heteronormative but the matchmaking in recent Fire Embelms is fun.

load more comments
view more: next ›