Ask Lemmy

I drifted slowly from right-libertarian to a more leftish position: pro-union, pro-social-programs, skeptical of the compatibility of unregulated capitalism with individual freedom. Still no fan of tankies.

This wasn't from anyone sitting down and trying to convince me, though. Part of it was discovering how close right-libertarianism had always been to white-supremacism: some old Ron Paul newsletters were unpleasantly enlightening. Part was seeing people who called themselves "libertarians" line up with the far right to support state violence, especially against black and brown people. And heck, part was from getting richer and seeing how that worked.

I have a lot of sympathy for the frustrations that get young men into right-wing positions and occasionally I try to puncture some of the nonsense they're being fed.

Confronting them with the flaws in their thinking only makes them double down:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/202401/why-do-people-double-down

I'm in the middle of pulling a chat friend out of his programming. His only real problem was being raised in Texas by a Good Ol Boy single father, and once he got out from under his dad's wing, he started to realize that what he was taught simply isn't lining up with reality.

He started out as an incel, but now he's in therapy and has a girlfriend.

I think of it less as 'converting' and more just holding his hand while he figures out that his dad's advice was complete horseshit. It takes forever, and not everybody has the spoons to pull it off, but I do, so I will.

Don't know if I've ever done it, but it was done to me.

So, it's obviously possible.

I'm pretty amused by the mix of comments where people are offering up themselves as irrefutable evidence, while others proclaim with certainty it can't be done. Actually a humbling perspective see people who've convinced themselves trying to convince others I don't exist.

Before deleting most of my Reddit stuff, I had a good conversation with a conservative about climate change. They pulled out all the standard right wing talking points, and I tried to remain respectful as I provided sources that refuted every one. One they threw out that I hadn’t heard of at the time was “global wobbling,” which I had to look up. 10- minutes later, I responded, with sources, saying that it was yet another thing the right throws out to confuse the issue for voters, but something climate scientists are well aware of and can measure and predict. At that point, they thanked me for all the info and said they had some reading to do. That’s the best I’ve ever gotten. Don’t know if they changed their view, though.

I was raised Right. Change is a long series of events that no one person or interaction triggers. Dogma is only truly changed from within.

No, because nobody is actually about discussions anymore. They want to be right. I've sat down and talked to plenty of right wingers, after and before all this crazy shit pushed everyone into tribalism, and it was mostly that we agreed on what was good but disagreed how to get there. I miss those times. Now it doesnt seem theres any middle ground to build on.

My "deprogramming," was more a series of small hints I was on the wrong path.

At first, people who tried arguing pushed me further toward the right. They came at me from inciting angles, making up facts to support their arguments. Yeah, the left bullshits too, and if you believe everything that supports your point of view without question - you're not that different from the people you hate.

I remember someone asking me to a Fahrenheit 9/11 showing at university, called me a Bush supporter when I wouldn't go. I wasn't, I just didn't like Michael Moore. Still don't for the above reasons.

Looking back, I could have gracefully immersed myself in other viewpoints if it weren't for the constant needling of wannabe academics and the automatic disdain they had for my views. I was attacked for even bringing up points because I was questioning myself. Honestly, I get why conservatives hate academia.

I will say some arguments stuck, though. Statements that sounded like complete nonsense in the moment make sense to me now, years later. It's not wasted breath to share your views with someone, they'll remember.

Regardless, I was still wrong and it wasn't other people's responsibility to educate me. I did that through meeting good, patient and understanding friends, actively trying to dismantle my biases, and through therapy. Oh, and some pretty intense acid trips. That shit will fast track you to a feeling of oneness with your community real quick.

I don't think anyone is going to change their views over an Internet post or conversation. Maybe someone might come around on a particular topic if an argument really resonates with them, but someone changing their entire worldview can take years. But sure, I think it's possible given enough conversation and slight nudging over time, given they aren't being more radicalized by other content every day.

I was very conservative. My drift leftward started before the internet was enough of a thing to have video debate spaces, but online debate has given me a lot to think about and pushed me farther left. I credit George Carlin with some of my early movement. He's like an online debate, just against air.

I've had small success with my aunt by focusing on her love of children, explaining how many are dying under the needlessly cruel boot of Israel

From what I have figured out:

1. They need to already respect you in some way, this does not work on random strangers unless you are a top tier communicator or public figure

2. You need to identify the levers, for my aunt it is babies in danger. It will be different for different people, you need to do your homework

3. INFINITE PATIENCE and consistently reiterating your own genuine respect for them (this can be hard, you may need to dig deep), you need to show them that they aren't your enemy and that they have been lied to by people they have trusted for nefarious purposes

4. Play on the rights inherent distrust for the elite, Muskrat and co ARE the elite! Look at what he's doing to medicare!

5. It will take many, many sessions and you CANNOT falter or get impatient or it gives them an excuse to dismiss everything before

It's not easy, it takes time and effort, though it is doable

My family including my parents moved from rural conservative to progressive left (probably somewhere around Social Democrat).

I've spent A LOT of time trying to truly reach out to conservatives, Trump supporters, from this angle. It requires a lot of time, but know two key things:

1. All you can do is plant seeds for neurons to grow. Belief structures get locked in like worn paths through a jungle, and so carving new ways requires an immense amount of time. You'll never see the fruits of your labor yourself — both because the vast majority of people have an ego they protect at all cost, and because by the time something "clicks" and new neural paths build, you'll be long gone.

2. Always recognize that your target audience is not the individual, themselves, necessarily, but the onlookers to the discussion. Always hold the high road. Always be courteous and let them throw the first punches. You'll have a much easier task convincing the fence-sitters whose egos aren't directly on the line as a direct participant in the conversation.

You can increase the probability you'll reach these people by ending the conversation on a cordial note once you realize arguments are starting to become circular. You also know you made some decent ground if they just ghost the conversation or delete their entire comment chain without warning. You pierced their ego; they feel embarrassed. You've given them food for thought. Try to also frame how you got out of the echo-chamber so it's not necessarily an attack on them, but an example of growth on yourself.

It's a thankless task, the victories you'll never see until we see it on a statistical level. The problem is that it's a competition for who commands their attention the most, and you'll never compete with Twitter, Fox News. You just have to hope they have that eureka moment, combined with perhaps a direct run-in with the fascism you warn about.

While I haven’t convinced anyone, I have seen things shift to a more class conscience level.

Luigi might have been the turning point. Slowly right wing spaces are turning anti rich.

I haven’t been able to convince anyone, but I’ve gotten people to agree if I just focus on “I want this in my country cause it would benefit me as a working class man”.

So imo it’s less about going head on and more about finding something you could agree with and just solidifying that, if they are gonna move left it’s gonna happen slowly by them observing their life.

Does it count if I did it to myself?

You have two options:

1. Insist upon yourself, with presentable and short facts hard to deny
2. Argue from their perspective and draw their ire towards the party they (used to) support with their own morals

People change minds even if you don't see them do so directly, option 1 could pay off in the future as they shift certain narratives, understand certain topics and gain new morals or goals, but option 2 is immediately and pays off if they listen, someone who supports war would be turned off from supporting trump if you, say, used trumps incompetence to blame him for 'risking American troops'

I'm conservative, but I've never seen it happen in either direction. Internet arguments are more about the audience than the tankie you're arguing against.

The person you're taking to online has a vested interest in defending the position they put forth. Someone reading your response who initially agrees with the person you're talking to does not have a defensive attitude to the same degree. Your arguments will be much more successful with the observer than with the other participant. You will probably never know if you had an impact on the observer. That's what you should be aiming for though.

I'm done trying to change minds, they're sure as shit not changing mine. I just can't with these people anymore. You can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into.

Public shaming is the way to go, it's served humanity plenty well in the past to curb unwanted behavior and minority opinions. Shove the hypocrisy down their throats and revel in their little shocked Pikachu faces.

Using their own tactics against them is cathartic and effective, they're used to people trying to reason with them and then dragging you into more and more insane arguments and stances. The reins really come off when you realize you can lie just as much as they do and hand wave any counterarguments. Burden of proof? How about I just throw some more bullshit at you, etc. Quote the bible, extra points for obscure/confusing passages. Frustrate the fuck out of them, its only fair.

Feel free to disagree but in my own experience observing people any tipe of radical thought is usually a mental health issue. You can't treat mental health through comments.

I have been told by multiple people (so, like, two. Maybe 3) over the years that things I have posted have changed their minds and their leanings on political topics. But these were not any of the people I was directly addressing. I think they may have all been before the rise of Big Social, too.

I've watched conservative theists unravel and admit things about themselves openly as they crash out under questioning they started by making a thread on debate forums, but they always relapsed by the next day.