Ladybird, a truly independent web browser. : linux

[–] onlinepersona 38 points 4 months ago (12 children)

I will never understand why people name stuff just by opening an English dictionary and simply picking a word.

Also why start a browser with C++? Google and Mozilla don't employ nincompoops to work on their browsers and still say 70% of their CVEs are due to memory management errors from C++. Instead of learning from that, they start yet another browser in C++.

In theory it great that this org wants to make an alternative, and probably being funded by a millionaire (billionaire?) can't hurt, but C++ man? Come on...

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[–] [email protected] 83 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

From.the FAQ

Why build a new browser in C++ when safer and more modern languages are available? Ladybird started as a component of the SerenityOS hobby project, which only allows C++. The choice of language was not so much a technical decision, but more one of personal convenience. Andreas was most comfortable with C++ when creating SerenityOS, and now we have almost half a million lines of modern C++ to maintain.

However, now that Ladybird has forked and become its own independent project, all constraints previously imposed by SerenityOS are no longer in effect. We are actively evaluating a number of alternatives and will be adding a mature successor language to the project in the near future. This process is already quite far along, and prototypes exist in multiple languages.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 months ago

It's crazy that SerenityOS decided to re-write their everything from scratch, to suit them. I wish I coukd do that too, but I don't have the resources.

[–] onlinepersona 6 points 4 months ago

I hadn't seen that, thanks! That gives me a little hope.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

I will never understand why people name stuff just by opening an English dictionary and simply picking a word

Naming stuff is hard.

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[–] LeFantome 9 points 4 months ago

For anybody else with the same question…

The Ladybird browser started as a part of the SerenityOS Project. SerenityOS had adopted Ladybug imagery before the browser was conceived. “Ladybird” seemed like a perfectly reasonable name for a core component of the OS given its existing iconography.

It was ( and is ) as good name in context.

Ladybird has decided to split with its SerenityOS roots. I have pretty mixed feelings on that. Regardless, it would be silly to change the name at this point.

The same history applies to C++. SerenityOS is written in C++. Until the split, the OS and browser were maintained in a mono repo with extremely deep code integration and coordination. They share the same custom C++ standard library and coding conventions for example.

SerenityOS was started as a very personal project and the original author is ( or was ) a fan of C++. While I am personally not a fan, it seems like a perfectly reasonable language choice to write an OS in.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I’ve seen C++ code written by Microsoft and I’ve got to say, they aren’t the brightest candles on the cake either.

[–] onlinepersona 1 points 4 months ago

I've seen C++ code holding up a Fortune 500 company with people actually sitting on the board of C++ and being part of the decision making process on what goes into C++. Even had an advanced course on it given by some of the people. Let me tell you, it doesn't trickle down.

You can add all the macros and idioms you like, there will always be somebody loading an entire table from SQL into memory and dereferencing the each row+column with a double for-loop to find the correct row, then hand parsing the resulting row into the "right" in-memory data structure. Once you hit a column with variable length storing binary data (don't ask) and the length is in a column with that doesn't make it into the Row object, there is fun to be had.

My favorite is when you have a macro that hides what kind of pointer it is (shared, unique), but is only used when creating the variable, and someone uses a reinterpret_cast to solve some problem. Took a while to track that down. Bro, I fucking love the language.

Best of all is when code only has to pass some regression testing and has no code review. Absolute genius.

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[–] QuadriLiteral 2 points 4 months ago

Cross-platform and performant, are there options besides C++ and rust?

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[–] rekabis 26 points 4 months ago (6 children)

We don't have anyone actively working on Windows support, […] We would like to do Windows eventually, but it's not a priority at the moment.

As much as I applaud this focus on just one broad OS architecture, as it will greatly speed development, leaving out Windows is likely to cut off 85-90% of all early adopters. I just hope that the benefit of a simplified target will outweigh ignoring the vast majority of the market.

And honestly, methinks they should focus on Haiku OS before Windows, as it is closer to a Unix heritage than Windows is. And Haiku OS desperately needs a native modern web browser with all the bells and whistles.

[–] BatmanAoD 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Why do you think most early adopters use Windows exclusively?

[–] Lmaydev 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Well Linux desktop is at 4% so it's cutting out 96% of the market.

[–] BatmanAoD 4 points 4 months ago

...did you just completely forget about Macs? That's about 18% of the desktop market.

But they also are prioritizing mobile development (though they don't have anything working there yet) prior to Windows development. That's a much, much larger market share.

Additionally:

Early adopters are likely to be devs, and devs use Linux and Mac much more than typical end-users.
Even early adopters who do use Windows often use WSL, which now has first-class support for GUI apps.

[–] UndercoverUlrikHD 3 points 4 months ago

I'd hazard as guess that Linux users are at least a magnitude more likely to be an early adopter of this project than Windows users, at 4% market share it shouldn't be that big of problem at the start.

[–] LeFantome 3 points 4 months ago

They do not need early adopters yet. They know it is too early. It makes sense to focus on progress. Outreach can happen later when they are more technically ready.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

The average Windows user would easily be put off by the project if they tried it this early. I feel it'd actually be better if they don't release on Windows until they are ready. That way they can get better press when it finally releases on Windows.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I mean, it is nice to have options. However, a first alpha release in 2026? That's more than a year away. A lot of stuff will happen until then, not unlikely that this gets stomped before that.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How exactly would it "get stomped", and by whom?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

By whom is by google. How I don't know how to answer

[–] FizzyOrange 14 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Yeah... It's going to take a whole lot more than $1m for this. I am skeptical.

Also not super enthused about another browser written in C++. I skimmed some of their code and it seems pretty high quality, but still... this is going to be chock full of security bugs.

Servo is definitely the more interesting project.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago

They're already exploring other languages. C++ just happens be its origin by way of its heritage. It's not their target anymore.

Ultimately, we'll see what happens. I agree that $1mil isn't a ton for a big project, but we don't know, yet, if they'll be able to secure other big donations or not over the course of its life. People have sold stupider ideas to potential donors, so who knows?

[–] rekabis 9 points 4 months ago

Also not super enthused about another browser written in C++. I skimmed some of their code and it seems pretty high quality, but still… this is going to be chock full of security bugs.

If you are going to do anything stability-based these days, Rust should be a big consideration.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 months ago

I thought this was the meta logo for a second.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Chris Wanstrath ... $1,000,000 donation

So.. not independent then.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

The website claims that sponsors have no direct influence on the project ("board seats are not for sale"). The reality is that no project of sufficient scale to fully implement web standards can survive without a significant amount of funding.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

Meanwhile on their website:

Chris Wanstrath (Secretary & Treasurer)

[–] [email protected] 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

from the FAQ

How can you be "independent" if you have sponsors?
All sponsorships are in the form of unrestricted donations. Board seats and other forms of influence are not for sale.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The threat of losing future donations if you upset a sponsor is still coercive.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

(sad part is even if they sold out, they’d still be leagues ahead of the compromises Firefox and Chrome have made)

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I do not understand how folks like you get so shitty about Firefox taking Google money for making it a default search engine when that is the very clear, very limited extent of their relationship. This is the definition of “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.” Because Firefox is pretty damn near perfect. I feel like I have to be missing something here.

What is the issue here? What compromises have they made that make them so irredeemable? If it’s the search default for google that’s just not sufficient IMO.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

arguing for internet censorship
a non-profit that has increased the salary of their CEO 400% while their market share drops 85% and they lay off 250 workers
CPO is suing them for potential discrimination
just bought Anonym, a full on advertising company
blocking anti-censorship addons at Russia’s request
buying into the AI hype

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I am pro deplatforming.
I need to look into the finances more before drawing a conclusion. Not a good look at face value though.
let’s see the suit play out, but also concerning
don’t know enough about anonym but acquiring an ad-focused company is hardly an indictment
they reversed course on the Russia issue so that’s not an issue and should make you feel better. Their reasoning was also legitimate, even so good on them for realizing it was the wrong - if well intentioned - decision.
everyone is exploring AI who gives a shit. They’ve hardly forced it down our throats like everyone else.

With all of this in mind i’m down to be critical but this is not enough to warrant the hate.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

“I’m not mad, I’m just … disappointed.”

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[–] spikespaz 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Not a good first impression (other comments have my thoughts covered) and I think I'll stick with Firefox.

Unless they impress us by re-writing it in a quality-first language, and make all configuration declarative, and drop support for some cruft. They're going to have to try something bold and different to impress me, otherwise, this seems like more of the same, and an uphill battle at that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Which immediately makes me asks which codes Firefox takes from Google

[–] [email protected] 56 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Firefox is dependent on Google financially, not codeually.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 4 months ago (1 children)

“codeually” 😆

[–] jwt 3 points 4 months ago

Well obviously they're an expert in nameology.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Thanks!

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago

Google pays Firefox a lot of money to make it the default search engine. It also takes like three clicks to swap it to DDG or something you prefer. If I were Mozilla/Firefox, I would take the money too lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

Ok but why did they choose an non-googlable name and rip off the Facebook logo.