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Well both Russia and the United States have shown that treaties and other agreements with them are only worth anything until they unilaterally change their mind, so something like blocking Ukraine from NATO could easily be ignored if the United States (or Russia) ever sees an election again.
US and Russia duopoly again: it's like going backwards to end of WW2 era, soon ready for "cold war part 2"
While the US could easily veto them joining NATO, there's nothing making Ukraine accept any deal struck between Russia and the US, who, last I checked, was not an active participant in this war. I don't know why Ukrainians would just throw in the towel after losing so much. I don't know if Europe can sustain things at the level of support Ukraine has been getting with US aid, but all the talk I hear makes it sound like the EU will do what it can.
Especially if Trump expects mineral rights or whatever he is going on about. I don't know why Ukraine would give up such tremendous value to a party that just volunteers them to surrender. Losing more territory to Russia is a possibility if they can't maintain troop/supply levels, but it hardly seems worth it for them to give up at this moment. It's been my understanding keeping the pressure on Russia constantly and not letting them recover has been crucial to Ukraine's success.
It just feels like Trump trying to put himself at the center of attention when he really has nothing to do with this anymore if he's choosing to stop US aid to Ukraine.
If the US really pull out then Poland is going to say "fuck it" and deliver materiel and ordinance using their own personnel. The latter directly to Russia. And there's nothing that would be able to stop them, so the rest of Europe will take part, in more active or passive roles.
Much of Europe's positioning around the issue right now hinges on not wanting to stoke the Russia/US rivalry bee's nest, with that ceasing to be a concern the Russians are going to get bitch-slapped. And Putin is going to claim victory, having successfully "driven a wedge into the west, broken it apart, having created a multipolar world order". And then Russian history books will say "and then butter became even more expensive, among other things which got worse".
not wanting to stoke the Russia/US rivalry bee’s nest
This has been one of the strangest things to me as an American looking at this conflict. I'm not particularly anti-American, but I don't look at us as anything special either. I attribute much of our success as a nation to being industrially ready for WW2 while not really taking any direct attacks from the war. We profited and were able to pocket all that money while almost everyone else had to spend money rebuilding is my simplified understanding.
We seem to have no real skin in the game other than this was a chance to help someone else beat up a rival for us while keeping our hands clean. Why the US seemed to be calling so many of the shots seemed absolutely ridiculous other than we like throwing weaponry wherever we can get away with it. I can understand us not putting troops in Ukraine, but why it felt we limited what anyone else could do when we would be the least directly affected by the outcome was very confusing.
It seems impossible other European countries would not get involved if we walked away, but it did seem like the option that would limit the overall violence the most with us just helping Ukraine. I don't want to see more countries get pulled in, especially since America is usually all about inserting our military in places. Trump bumping off Putin seems more on brand for what his fans usually go for anyway. They already sound in a bad position, and giving them the final nudge off the edge seems like an easy way to look like a real world hero. I dont't know what would come with the collapse of Putin's control, but at least initially I think most people would be in favor of that. Pulling out and leaving it to everyone else or doing things to help Russia now just seems a negative to us and most of you with no benefit to all but probably a single digit number of people.
“and then butter became even more expensive, among other things which got worse”.
This made me laugh. I love how some people cope with things.
Why the US seemed to be calling so many of the shots seemed absolutely ridiculous other than we like throwing weaponry wherever we can get away with it.
You're always in the fray, because you want to be seen to be in the fray, because you cannot comprehend yourself to be not in the fray. Most hilariously obvious was Libya: The intervention was 110% France's initiative and Americans somehow managed to attribute it to Hillary. It's an American universal, one portion of you thinks you're responsible for all the peace in the world, the other that you're responsible for every war, the one common theme is that you're the biggest and greatest and all-powerful. Cultural jingoism. The two sides might be at each other's throats but they're still swimming in the same unrecognised water.
I can understand us not putting troops in Ukraine, but why it felt we limited what anyone else could do when we would be the least directly affected by the outcome was very confusing.
Russia vs. EU is way less existential to Russia than Russia vs. US. The stakes are lower because Russia perceives them to be lower. Russia knows the EU won't go out and actually invade Russia, just throw them out of Ukraine and shitcan them into oblivion in trade. With the US, it's the cold war all over again.
It's not just about aid from the US, but also maintaining sanctions (and expanding compliance checks) w.r.t. russia.
Good point. I tend to forget about sanctions because they're not something really visible. I'd say dropping those would be very bad optics for both the government and whichever businesses start selling to Russia again, but that seems to be a very low concern given what we're doing to our own country at the moment. It just would look like blatantly stabbing Ukraine in the back though. The US seems to be hell bent on making enemies out of everyone and I hate it so much.
I've lived in the US before (I am Ukrainian, living in Kyiv) and the impression I get is Americans are taking their current position for granted.
I have met so few actually interested in our own politics, let alone what is going on half a world away. It is very disappointing.
I'm not one to promote fighting, but Russia coming into Ukraine and being 100% in the wrong was a chance for us to do right and actually support the right side of a conflict and really strengthen relations with our allies and deal a blow to a long-time antagonist. It seemed like a thing we could do with no way of coming out of it badly. I wasn't keen on sending things like cluster munitions that have bad downstream effects, but otherwise it seemed we were sending you things we had but no longer needed, but you all were in crucial need of. The media framed it in dollar figures of aid being sent, which I feel did a disservice with people's lack of understanding here. It was money that had been spent decades ago, but people felt like it was coming out of their pockets now instead of it being bad economic policy in the present.
Now though, we seem to be taking shots at our allies and preparing to buddy up to our longtime rival so the president can finally get his Moscow apartments built and twist resources out of a beaten up ally for what his fans we feel that you guys "owe" for us helping you out and ignoring you to make peace with your invader. I don't think we could have made a better new friend than a restored Ukraine, and it would have put us in a good light with the rest of Europe, as if Ukraine compromises in this whole affair, I think that extends more danger to most of Europe, especially other former Soviet states.
If we end up screwing you guys over, I think this will go down as a huge blunder in history, and I don't think it will take long for the US to feel repercussions, as I don't see us getting much useful from an unofficial alliance with Russia, and it will ruin our trust with every nation, especially throughout Europe, unless they keep going hard to the right as well, in which case, I don't look forward to those alliances either. This all seems negative for us now here, and I feel terrible that your country is being treated like this by our government. I felt our nations were really on a great path until the election.
I and everyone I associate with still want you all to succeed. I think what is going on between you and Russia is going to have a huge influence on the whole world in the near future, and I'd rather you get back what was taken from you and end this war successfully than for my country to reap any benefit from the aid we lent you. It should have all been to do the right thing for our friends. If it wasn't, we deserve the treatment we get from the rest of the world. It will be bad for us, but there has to be a price for stranding an ally.
Thanks for the kind words! We have to collectively makes the most out of a bad situation.
How them Taurus missiles doing?
That’s what I’m saying man. I’m sick of Russia and their interference. I hope someone fights back against Russia/Putin cause it’s clear that our President won’t.
Unpopular opinion: any peace treaty with Russia is going to require Ukraine giving up land. Russia is already occupying it and the Ukraine can't retake it, especially if US aid goes away. There needs to be a material change in the war to get Russia to agree to fuck off, it's not going to be the US getting involved, and I doubt the EU is willing either.
Yes, but talk to your allies first and don't make unnecessary concessions.
How can trump take all the credit if he asks others first?
'The art of the deal'
Remember the west giving hitler czechoslovakia before ww2? No? Then go fucking read about it.
Allowing russia to win and then go back to their shithole to breed more cannon fodder is a recipe for another war in a couple of years.
It's going to take someone to stop them though, which there doesn't appear to be anyone willing at the moment.
And what will they do? Nothing! The EU is spineless.
The EU is currently watching a toddler rampage through the diplomatic globe with the grace of a untrained forklift operator. They're a little more concerned with protecting their own interests than helping America dig itself out of a hole that's 75+ years in the making.
The topic is about helping Ukraine, not the US. Why in the world would you assume they were suggesting the latter?