this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2024
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[–] [email protected] 121 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (15 children)

Why are they even named like this?

When I read code, I want to be able to read it.....

Is this from a time when space was expensive and you wanted to reduce the space of the source files on the devs PC???

For me (with a native language != english), this made it a lot harder to get into programming in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 91 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I recently held a science slam about this topic! It's a mix of the first computer scientists being mathematicians, who love their abbreviations, and limited screen size, memory and file size. It's a trend in computing that has been well justified in the past, but has been making it harder for people to work together. And the need to use abbreviations has completely gone with the age of auto completion and language servers.

[–] [email protected] 62 points 2 months ago (7 children)

mathematicians, who love their abbreviations

Man, I hate that so much. I swear this was half the reason I struggled with maths and physics, that these guys need to write this:

Rather than this:

At some point, they even collectively decided that not having to write a multiplication dot is more important than being able to use more than a single letter for your variables. Just what the fuck?

[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago (9 children)

Thing is, you usually define all your variables. At least we do in engineering (of physical variety, rather than software).

Mostly because we can't expect everyone reading the calculation to know, and that not everyone uses the same symbols.

Not explaining each variable is bad practice, other than for very simple things. (I do expect everyone and their dog reading a process eng calc to know PV=nRT, at a minimum).

Just like (in my opinion) not defining industry specific abbreviations is also bad practice.

Mathematicians don't do this? Shame on them.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I mean, it was rather physics that was worse in this regard.

Mathematicians do define their variable quite rigorously. Everything is so abstract, at some point you do just need to write down "this thing is a number". Problem with maths folks is rather that they get more creative with their other symbols. So, "this thing is a number" is actually written as "∃x, x ∈ ℝ".

But yeah, in the school/university physics I experienced, it was assumed that you knew that U is voltage, ρ (rho) is density, ω (omega) is angular velocity etc..
At one point, I had to memorize six pages of formulas and it felt like every letter (Latin, Greek, uppercase, lowercase, some Fraktur for good measure) was a shorthand for something.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Using full names like that might be fine for explaining a physical rule, or stating the final result of some calculation - but it certainly would be cumbersome and difficult for actually carrying out the calculations. In many cases we already fill pages with algebra showing how things can be related and rearranged to arrive at new results. That kind of work would be intractable with full word names for the variables, partially because you'd be constantly spilling off the end of the page trying to write the steps; but also because having all that stuff would actually obfuscate what you are trying to do - which is algebra. And during that process, the meanings and values of the pronumerals is not as important has how they interact with each other. So the names are just a distraction.

For setting up an equation, and for stating the final result, the meanings of the variables are very important; but during the process of manipulating the equations to get the result you want the meanings of the letters are often ignored. You only need to know that it is something that can be multiplied, or inverted, or subtracted, or whatever. Eg. suppose I want to rearrange to get the velocity. I don't care that I'm dividing both sides by the air density times the drag coefficient and the area... I'm just dividing ρCA, which is an algebraic blob whose interpretation can be saved for some other time.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Try to write the above with pen and ink and then tell me if you can read it back yourself.

Single letters is not a good system but it was the less bad one.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Bruh how large should our notebook pages be? Also how should we speak about the equation? What if the terms should be represented in a matrix? What if mathematical functions e^x, sin, ln etc. are present? Would you write sine of e^(velocity of the particle B) ? Notations are necessary for readability

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don't know what to tell you. They obliterate readability for me.
I also genuinely believe these shorthands hinder access to research for the 99.9% of humanity who are not experts in the given field. Obviously, you do need to understand the context to use a formula correctly, but that also becomes harder when everything is written with hieroglyphs.
In university, I had to assess this paper. It took me 3 weeks to decipher that alien language, and it doesn't even say anything particularly riveting.

To address your points:

  • I'm hoping that at least published math can be typed out with full names.
  • I'm not opposed to local aliases. E.g. if the point is that some values in the matrix are negative and others not, then absolutely write "with air_resistance as 'a', the catapultation matrix is { a, -a, -a, ... }".
  • I don't actually want to introduce spaces into variable names, that's just an example I randomly found online. I was rather thinking e.g. sine(euler^velocity_b).
    Bonus point: You can reasonably type it on a computer, because you don't need Greek letters and subscripts anymore.
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I would have quit math if I had to do algebra with names instead of letters.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

It's from a time keyboards were so hard that you needed to do push ups on your finger tips if you wanted to endure a 9 to 5 programming job.

[–] JackbyDev 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The reason people love IBM Model Ms nowadays is because the springs have been worn in now and can easily be pressed without additional training.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 2 months ago

I recall reading somewhere the earlier compilers had a hard limit on the length of function names, due to memory constraints.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I've heard it's because old screens were like 60 character wide

[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 months ago

Also punched cards had around 80 columns, which put a hard limit on the number of characters per line.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Did you know that in the first version of php, each function name would be hashed to lookup the code to run it? And the hashing algorithm was: the first letter. So all the functions started with a different letter.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's not. PHP used to use the function length as hash buckets, so by having evenly distributed lengths the execution time was faster. No idea where GP came up with that.

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[–] [email protected] 103 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I can't remember it, but I read one Microsoft blog post (in Vista era?) about how one team at Microsoft would develop some amazing new Windows component. They'd proudly name it AmazingNewService.dll. And then the operating system team would come in and say "that's all fine and good, but you have to conform to the naming convention." 8+3 filenames. First two letters probably "MS", because of reasons. ...and 15 years later, people still regularly go "What the fuck is MSAMNSVC.DLL?"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Why are they still so hung up on 8.3 long after Win95?

I get not wanting to have spaces in a filename. Those suck.

Is there something low-level that still doesn't like long filenames?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Well this was Vista era, they were probably doing that to ensure some sort of expectation from particularly tricky legacy apps. Windows prefers not to break old apps if at all possible.

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[–] Gobbel2000 90 points 2 months ago (4 children)

man -k to the rescue: mbsrtowcs, strxfrm and wcstold are C functions.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago

wcsoll is a mispronunciation of wcscoll

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago

Oh no. You tell them forbidden knowledge of reading manual.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

The function wcstol appears to be missing. Cross platform C is difficult.

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Rhowch, cwtch, mwyn have to be Welsh. Classicly Welsh sounding words, and mbrsrtowcs, strxfrm can't possibly be Welsh. Source: my welsh uncle taught me to pronounce Welsh place names.

Wcstold, wcsoll wmffre could be either but sound really weird as Welsh to me.

[–] [email protected] 57 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Wmffre is actually the Welsh spelling of the name "Humphrey"

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I love the Welsh, but holy shit that's not what those letters are supposed to be for. They and the Irish just made a bunch of shit up when they started to standardize spelling. It makes me understand how Russians feel when Westerners use Cyrillic letters improperly.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 months ago (3 children)

the letters are "supposed to be" for Latin, a language with only five different vowel sounds.

everyone since has just been making a bunch of shit up.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Having read your comment I’d like your views on “Wrwgwai” - the South American country of Uruguay.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It's easy. W is a vowel in Welsh. It sounds similar to ö in German and it can be modified as ŵ to elongate the sound such as in the word dŵr which means water.

Wrwgwai or Wcrain (for example) are the natural way to spell those countries using the Welsh alphabet. Its a highly phonetic language believe it or not.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

In English it is literally called 'double u'

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[–] MajorHavoc 55 points 2 months ago

I thought I would be better at this game than I am.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 2 months ago

Easy. The ones with vowels are C library functions.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago

Are there any of them that are both?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I prefer names like these to names that are common words. Even the name of the language is annoying because the letter C isn't exactly uncommon in other contexts. I can't blame the people who named the language because they did it long before search engines were a thing, but what excuse do people now have?

[–] BlueBockser 24 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So you're saying we should create a programming language called "Welsh" with C-like function names?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

No because that would imply that Welsh is not just as valid a language as English and I don't want to be wedi'i gywiro'n gwrtais.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Rhowch, mwyn, and wnffre are Welsh. The rest is nonsense.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (5 children)
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