If AI is so good at coding - where are the open source contributions? : programming

[–] Reptorian 1 points 34 minutes ago

I'll admit I did used AI for code before, but here's the thing. I already coded for years, and I usually try everything before last resort things. And I find that approach works well. I rarely needed to go to the AI route. I used it like for .11% of my coding work, and I verified it through stress testing.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 hours ago

If AI was good at coding, my game would be done by now.

[+] [email protected] -9 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (4 children)

To be honest, all of this is cope.

It's true that ai isn't a replacement for good coders ..YET.

But it will be. You all can be as mad as you want, publish as many articles about how much ai sucks as you want. but it won't stop anything from happening.

I say this as someone who has just started to learn to code myself.

The reason you all are mad is because you suddenly feel unsafe and unappreciated. And you're right.

Ai is still gonna happen though. It will take away a lot of your jobs (especially starting with jr coders just getting into the market). It will lower your pay. You can yell about it, or you can adapt. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Think of it this way: what do you think the market is gonna be like in 5 years? Then 10? Brah, start preparing now. Right fucking now. Cuz it ain't gonna get easier for you. I promise.

It happened with blue-collar factory works in the midwest regions of the US because of automation and offshoring. People bitched and tried to stop it. Lots of snooty white-color workers yelled, "learn to code!" But none of that saved their jobs.

And you guys won't stop it happening with your jobs either. I don't like the idea of AI taking over everything either. But it will. Adapt or die.

I've just started to learn to code. I am enjoying it. But in no way, shape, or form am I thinking it's going to lead to a job for me.

EDIT: To copy what some else said, much better than me:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] Mniot 8 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

To be honest, you sound like you're only just starting to learn to code.

Will coding forever belong to humans? No. Is the current generative-AI technology going to replace coders? Also no.

The reaction you see is frustration because it's obvious to anyone with decent skill that AI isn't up to the challenge, but it's not obvious to people who don't have that skill and so we now spend a lot of time telling bosses "no, that's not actually correct".

Someone else referenced Microsoft's public work with Copilot. Here's Copilot making 13 PRs over 5 days and only 4 ever get merged you might think "30% success is pretty good!" But compare that with human-generated PRs and you can see that 30% fucking sucks. And that's not even looking inside the PR where the bot wastes everyone's time making tons of mistakes. It's just a terrible coworker and instead of getting fired they're getting an award for top performer.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 12 minutes ago

It's the Dunning-Kruger effect.

And it's fostered by an massive amount of spam and astroturfing coming from "AI" companies, lying that LLMs are good at this or that. Sure, algorithms like neural networks can recognize patterns. Algorithms like backtracking can play chess or solve or transform algebraic equations. But these are not LLMs and LLMs will not and can not replace software engineering.

Sure, companies want to pay less for programming. But they don't pay for software developers to generate some gibberish in source code syntax, they need working code. And this is why software engineers and good programmers will not only remain scarce but will become even shorter in supply.

And companies that don't pay six-figure salaries to developers will find that experienced developers will flat out refuse to work on AI-generated codebases, because they are unmaintainable and lead to burnout and brain rot.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

To be honest, you sound like you’re only just starting to learn to code.

I definitely am. But I have no doubts that ai is going to take a lot of entry-level type jobs soon, and eventually higher end jobs.

We'll always need good, smart coders. Just not as many as we have now.

but it’s not obvious to people who don’t have that skill and so we now spend a lot of time telling bosses “no, that’s not actually correct”.

I get it. But those clueless people are gonna be the people in charge of hiring, and they'll decide to hire less, and expect current staff to do more. I've seen in hundreds of time in industries, and it's already happening now in yours.

For context, I'm old. So I've seen your arguments in many different industries.

And to your point, they'll have ai replacing good people, long before ai is good enough to. But you're approaching the issue with logic. Corporate lacks a lot of logic.

I'm already seeing it in your industry. Plenty of reddit/Lemmy posts talking about how coders have been laid off, and having a much much more difficult time getting another job than at any point in their careers.

Again, I'm saying AI is a good solution. I'm saying management will think that. Just like they did when they offshored jobs to much less skilled, yet way more inexpensive workers.

To copy what someone else in this thread said:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] Mniot 1 points 35 minutes ago

I don't understand how you think this works.

If I say, "now we have robots that can build a car from scratch!" the automakers will be salivating. But if my robot actually cannot build a car, then I don't think it's going to cause mass layoffs.

Many of the big software companies are doing mass layoffs. It's not because AI has taken over the jobs. They always hired extra people as a form of anti-competitiveness. Now they're doing layoffs to drive salaries down. That sucks and tech workers would be smart to unionize (we won't). But I don't see any radical shift in the industry.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Do you think there's any reason to believe that these tools are going to continue their breakneck progress? It seems like we've reached a point where throwing more GPUs and text at these things is not yielding more results, and they still don't have the problem solving skills to work out tasks outside of their training set. It's closer to a StackOverflow that magically has the answers to most questions you ask than a replacement for proper software engineering. I know you never know if a breakthrough is around the corner, but it feels like we've hit a plateau for the foreseeable future.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Do you think there’s any reason to believe that these tools are going to continue their breakneck progress?

I do.

And as I mentioned in another comment, it's not so much that I think AI will do a better job, it's that I think MANAGEMENT will think AI does a cheaper job. Already many tech people who have been laid off are saying it's the worst job market they've ever seen.

AI sucks. But management is about dollars NOW. The are shortsided, fall into fads, and they will see the cost savings now as outweight the long term problems. I don't agree with them, I am saying they will do that tho. Even if we don't agree.

To copy what someone else in this thread said:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I think the biggest difference between this and blue-collars workers losing their jobs, though, is that the same people losing their jobs are also placed very to benefit from the technology. Blue collared workers losing manufacturing jobs couldn't, because they were priced out of obtaining that mafacturing hardware themselves, but programmers can use AI on an individual basis to augment their production. Not sure what the industry will look like in 10 years, but I feel like there will be plenty of opportunities for people who build digital things.

That being said, people who were looking to be junior developers exactly right now.... uhhh.... that's some extrememly unlucky timing. I wish you luck.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Well I'm old, so no looking for a job, I am just learning programming because i want to. But to your point, I am seeing LOTS of developers who have been laid off and finding another job is proving more challenging than ever before. It's rough out there and I feel for them.

To copy what someone else in this thread said:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn't the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it's already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they're trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone's detriment.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

100 percent. YOu said in two sentences what I have been trying to say to others. I think you are 100 percent correct. Management will count on AI long before they actually should. That shortsightedness has always been around and always will be.

[–] LeFantome 19 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Can Open Source defend against copyright claims for AI contributions?

If I submit code to ReactOS that was trained on leaked Microsoft Windows code, what are the legal implications?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

what are the legal implications?

It would be so fucking nice if we could use AI to bypass copyright claims.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

AI is at its most useful in the early stages of a project. Imagine coming to the fucking ssh project with AI slop thinking it has anything of value to add 😂

[–] [email protected] 24 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (2 children)

The early stages of a project is exactly where you should really think hard and long about what exactly you do want to achieve, what qualities you want the software to have, what are the detailed requirements, how you test them, and how the UI should look like. And from that, you derive the architecture.

AI is fucking useless at all of that.

In all complex planned activities, laying the right groundwork and foundations is essential for success. Software engineering is no different. You won't order a bricklayer apprentice to draw the plan for a new house.

And if your difficulty is in lacking detailed knowledge of a programming language, it might be - depending on the case ! - the best approach to write a first prototype in a language you know well, so that your head is free to think about the concerns listed in paragraph 1.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

the best approach to write a first prototype in a language you know well

Ok, writing a web browser in POSIX shell using yad now.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 14 hours ago

I'm going back to TurboBASIC.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

writing a web browser in POSIX shell

Not HTML but the much simpler Gemini protocol - well you could have a look at Bollux, a Gemini client written im shell, or at ereandel:

https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini?tab=readme-ov-file#terminal

[–] ulterno 1 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (2 children)

AI is only good for the stage when...

AI is only good in case you want to...

Can't think of anything. Edit: yes, I really tried
Playing the Devils' advocate was easier that being AI's advocate.

I might have said it to be good in case you are pitching a project and want to show some UI stuff maybe, without having to code anything.
But you know, there are actually specialised tools for that, which UI/UX designers used, to show my what I needed to implement.
And when I am pitching UI, I just use a pencil and paper and it is so much more efficient than anything AI, because I don't need to talk to something, to make a mockup, to be used to talk to someone else. I can just draw it in front of the other guy with 0 preparation, right as it came into my mind and don't need to pay for any data center usage. And if I need to go paperless, there is Whiteboards/Blackboards/Greenboards and Inkscape.

After having banged my head trying to explain code to a new developer, so that they can hopefully start making meaningful contributions, I don't want to be banging my head on something worse than a new developer, hoping that it will output something that is logically sound.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

AI is good for the early stages of a project ... when it's important to create the illusion of rapid progress so that management doesn't cancel the project while there's still time to do so.

[–] ulterno 3 points 13 hours ago

Ahh, so an outsourced con~~man~~computer.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Its good as a glorified autocomplete.

[–] ulterno 2 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Except that an autocomplete, with simple, lightweight and appropriate heuristics can actually make your work much easier and will not make you have to read it again and again, before you can be confident about it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 13 hours ago

True, and it doesn't boil the oceans and poison people's air.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It’s not good because it has no context on what is correct or not. It’s constantly making up functions that don’t exist or attributing functions to packages that don’t exist. It’s often sloppy in its responses because the source code it parrots is some amalgamation of good coding and terrible coding. If you are using this for your production projects, you will likely not be knowledgeable when it breaks, it’ll likely have security flaws, and will likely have errors in it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

And I'll keep saying this: you can't teach a neural network to understand context without creating a generalised context engine, another word for which is AGI.

Fidelity is impossible to automate.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 hours ago

So you're saying I've got a shot?

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 day ago (8 children)

Have you used AI to code? You don't say "hey, write this file" and then commit it as "AI Bot 123 [email protected]".

You start writing a method and get auto-completes that are sometimes helpful. Or you ask the bot to write out an algorithm. Or to copy something and modify it 30 times.

You're not exactly keeping track of everything the bots did.

[–] Reptorian 1 points 33 minutes ago

I used it only as last resort. I verify it before using it. I only had used it for like .11% of my project. I would not recommend AI.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 day ago (10 children)

yeah, that's... one of the points in the article

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Microsoft is doing this today. I can't link it because I'm on mobile. It is in dotnet. It is not going well :)

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 day ago (2 children)

If humans are so good at coding, how come there are 8100000000 people and only 1500 are able to contribute to the Linux kernel?

I hypothesize that AI has average human coding skills.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

The average coder is a junior, due to the explosive growth of the field (similar as in some fast-growing nations the average age is very young). Thus what is average is far below what good code is.

On top of that, good code cannot be automatically identified by algorithms. Some very good codebases might look like bad at a superficial level. For example the code base of LMDB is very diffetent from what common style guidelines suggest, but it is actually a masterpiece which is widely used. And vice versa, it is not difficult to make crappy code look pretty.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Average drunk human coding skils

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[–] andybytes 10 points 1 day ago

My theory is not a lot of people like this AI crap. They just lean into it for the fear of being left behind. Now you all think it's just gonna fail and it's gonna go bankrupt. But a lot of ideas in America are subsidized. And they don't work well, but they still go forward. It'll be you, the taxpayer, that will be funding these stupid ideas that don't work, that are hostile to our very well-being.

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