this post was submitted on 24 Apr 2025
44 points (92.3% liked)

Python

7040 readers
101 users here now

Welcome to the Python community on the programming.dev Lemmy instance!

πŸ“… Events

PastNovember 2023

October 2023

July 2023

August 2023

September 2023

🐍 Python project:
πŸ’“ Python Community:
✨ Python Ecosystem:
🌌 Fediverse
Communities
Projects
Feeds

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 30 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (3 children)

I don't know about others ... but I'm not using Python for execution speed.

Typically the biggest problem in a program is not 100 million calls of len(x) == 0. If it was, the interpreter could just translate that expression during parsing.

[–] FizzyOrange 3 points 1 hour ago

I mean, nobody uses Python for execution speed precisely because it is so slow.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

The interpreter can't make the replacement until it's about to execute the line as __bool__ and __len__ are both (Python's equivalent of) virtual functions, so it's got to know the runtime type to know if the substitution is valid. Once it's that late, it'll often be faster to execute the requested function than work out if it could execute something faster instead. Even with type hints, it's possible that a subclass with overridden methods could be passed in, so it's not safe to do anything until the real runtime type is known.

Once there's a JIT involved, there's an opportunity to detect the common types passed to a function and call specialised implementations, but I don't think Python's JIT is clever enough for this. LuaJIT definitely does this kind of optimisation, though.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Hm... I'll admit I wasn't awkward of the .__len__ function. ~~However, does this mean it's possible to write a len(x) == 0 that's diverges from not x?~~

~~If not, then the substitution is still valid (and not presumably also considers the same fundamental. If so, that's kind of silly.~~

EDIT: I missed the part of your comment about .__bool__ ... so yeah in theory you could have something where these two operations are not equivalent.

Arguably, you could just say that's pathological and invalid. Then, still have an optimized path to prefer not .__bool__() if .__len__() == 0 is the comparison you'd be making. Even with the extra interpreter check during evaluation, that would quite possibly be faster if the overhead is truly high.

EDIT 2: you'd probably need a little bit more overhead than a straight substitution anyways because you need to maintain the semantic of "if this thing is None it's not valid if the syntax was originally len(x)."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

Even so, not x is a pretty nice-to-read pattern, and it's nice that it's faster than the less nice len(x) == 0. I generally do not care to distinguish whether a list is None or empty, I just want to know if there's something there. If I care, then I'll typically separate those checks anyway: if x is None: ..., if len(x) == 0: ....

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I prefer the clarity of len(x) == 0 personally; it's a pretty low syntactic penalty to clarify intent.

Obviously, if your variable names are good and you're consistent about your usage not list can be fine too, but it is a very JavaScript-y thing to me to be that vague and/or rely on "truthiness."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

The notion of truthiness is defined by the language.

Here are most of the built-in objects considered false:

  • constants defined to be false: None and False
  • zero of any numeric type: 0, 0.0, 0j, Decimal(0), Fraction(0, 1)
  • empty sequences and collections: '', (), [], {}, set(), range(0)

It's not something that happens to work, it's literally defined that way.

if not x is the common way to tell if you have data or not, and in most cases, the difference between None and empty data ([], {}, etc) isn't important.

len(x) == 0 will raise an exception if you give it None, and that's usually not what you want. So I guess the verbose way to do that is if x is None or len(x) == 0:, but that's exactly equivalent to if not x, with the small caveat that it doesn't check if the value has __len__ implemented. If you're getting wonky types thrown around (i.e. getting a class instance when expecting a list), you have bigger problems.

I use type hinting on pretty much all "public" methods and functions, and many of my "private" methods and functions as well. As such, sending the wrong types is incredibly unlikely, so not x is more than sufficient and clearly indicates intent (do I have data?).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

I did not say it's not semantically well defined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Hello_World! -- this is semantically well defined, but it's still vague. Vagueness is a property of how well the syntax is conveying intent.

[–] Kissaki 12 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (3 children)

One of the principles of the Pythonic style is: simple is better than complex.

But is it when you consider ambiguity and expressiveness too?

len(mylist) tells me it's definitely a list and not null or whatever. It also tells me the intent of whoever writes the code was checking length.

If it requires a long article to explain, I'd certainly be hesitant to use and prefer. The question is, is it surprising or intuitive that the truthy becomes a length check. What do you want to express with your code. And who will read it, and what expectations and requirements do you want to require of them.

For sequence type objects, such as lists, their truth value is False if they are empty.

[–] Michal 1 points 29 minutes ago

It's just how pythonic code is written. All python developers know that not and bool can indicate that variable is either empty or null. They will also use the in operator and other python specific syntax.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago

foo = "potatoes!"

len(foo)

will give you the number of characters in the string. It's not a surefire way to find a list at all!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

len(mylist) tells me it’s definitely a list and not null or whatever

Do you know what else can tell you it's a list? Type hinting.

If I care about the distinction between None and an empty list, I'll make separate checks. len(None) raises an exception, and most of the time that's not what I want when checking whether there's something in the list, so not x is generally preferred, especially when type hinting is used consistently enough to be reasonably sure I'm actually getting a list or None. If I get something else, that means things got really broken and they'll likely get an exception alter (i.e. when doing anything list-like).

For sequence type objects, such as lists, their truth value is False if they are empty.

That's generally exactly what I want. len(x) == 0 doesn't tell you it's a list, it just tells you it has __len__. So that could be a dict, list, or a number of other types that have a length, but aren't lists.

Don't rely on checks like that to tell you what type a thing is.

[–] Kissaki 6 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

While the 2nd approach is not wrong, the first method is considered more Pythonic. Many people don’t agree, but I’ve already put forward my points in a previous article on that debate.

Does Pythonic mean best practice in the python community or "good python"?

If "many people don't agree", how can they claim it to be "pythonic"? Isn't that contradictory?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

"Many" isn't the same as "most," though I don't think there's any way to know what "most" is.

But here's my reason for agreeing w/ the OP:

  • not x checks both None and emptiness, which is usually desired
  • len(x) == 0 will raise an exception if x is null
  • with type hinting, those should be the only two reasonable options

It's nice that it's slightly faster, though performance has absolutely nothing to do w/ my preference, though it does have something to do with my preference for avoiding exceptions for non-exceptional cases.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 16 hours ago (4 children)

I think the explicitness of checking length is worth the performance cost. If ur writing code for speed ur not using python.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

Why? not x means x is None or len(x) == 0 for lists. len(x) == 0 will raise an exception if x is None. In most cases, the distinction between None and [] isn't important, and if it is, I'd expect separate checks for those (again, for explicitness) since you'd presumably handle each case differently.

In short:

  • if the distinction between None and [] is important, have separate checks
  • if not, not x should be your default, since that way it's a common pattern for all types
[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

I never understood that argument. If you can be sure the type is a collection (and this you always should) not list is so moch easier to read and understood than the length check.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Is it? Why introduce an additional conversion from not list means empty list that u have to hold in your head. I want to check length I check length I would argue is easyer to comprehend.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

Because that's a fundamental aspect of Python. When you're using a language, you should be familiar with the truthiness values. In Python, it's pretty sane:

  • [], {}, set(), "", None, False 0 and related values are all "falesy"
  • everything else is truthy

Basically, if you have non-default values, it's truthy. Why wouldn't you trust basic features of the language?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Compact does not mean easier to understand. They are different tests. The point is, do not make code less readable for speed unless speed matters. I am not going to argue which is more readable in any specific case. That is up to the developer.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

How many elements in that list? Ah, it's not list. It's list, of course, we checked. But it's not.

[–] UndercoverUlrikHD 15 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

I'd argue that if it's strict explicitness you want, python is the wrong language. if not var is a standard pattern in python. You would be making your code slower for no good reason.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

You always want explicitness when programming. Not everyone reading your code will be deep into Python and relying on falsiness makes it harder to understand.

[–] UndercoverUlrikHD 2 points 1 hour ago

While I agree to some extent, if not var is more than clear enough for anyone that knows python. If that pattern confuses someone, they probably aren't at level where they should be dealing with python at a professional level. The same way you would expect people to understand pointers and references before delving into C code.

This sort of stuff is something I taught first year engineering student in their programming introductory course, it's just how python is written.

For what it's worth, it's sort of similar in Erlang/Elixir. If you want to check if a list is empty, checking the length of the list is discouraged. Instead you would use Enum.empty?().

[–] fruitcantfly 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Containers being "truthy" is quite basic Python and you will find this idiom used in nearly every Python code base in my experience

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (1 children)

Yeah, I'm talking less deep than that. Plenty programming beginners will be reading Python code. And personally, I'm a fulltime software engineer, but just don't do much Python, so while I had it in the back of my mind that Python does truthiness, I would have still thought that var must be a boolean, because it's being negated. Obviously, a different variable name might've given me more of a clue, but it really doesn't reduce mental complexity when I can't be sure what's actually in a variable.

[–] fruitcantfly 1 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

But if those beginners want to stop being beginners, then they must learn the basics of the language. It makes no more sense to demand that everyone who programs in Python caters to beginners, than it makes to demand that everyone writing in English write at a 3rd grade reading level for the sake of English language learners

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago

I think you just like the truth test. Frankly I have used Python for over 25 years and have been doing programming for almost 50 years in many different languages. If you think I am somehow a beginner, I would disagree. The truth test is just like so many other Python specific idioms that grow in number by the year. They are not at all obvious unless you are deep into Python. Moreover, the truth test and the len() test are not the same test. One might be able to use either in a specific case, but that is case specific and which is more readable is up to the developer and we may well disagree on that choice. The other consideration in Python, speed of writing code which is often why many of us use Python and that may lead to different choices too including based on habit.

Lot of this reminds me of the Pascal vs. C debate of the 1980's. Pascal was all about readability over compactness. C on the other hand, seemed to attract people that loved to write very compact code that was almost impossible to figure out on first glance. Me personally, I guess I'd choose C over Pascal but write the C in more of a Pascal authoring philosophy. Similarly, with Python, I often do not go for all of the Python idioms. Lot of that is just writing what I am thinking, and the rest is probably habit. If I am going to test 0 length then I'll probably test zero length. I do not find it at all obvious that, oh, I want to test 0 length so the Python idiom for that is to truth test. I absolutely know that to be the case on certain types of objects, but it probably is not going to be my first choice.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 hours ago

Yeah, my stance for both of those is the same: If the complexity aids you in communicating better, then use it. But if you're using big words where small words would do, then you're doing a disservice to your readers.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

In complex cases where speed is less important than maintainability, I tend to agree.

In this case, a simple comment would suffice. And in fact nothing at all would be okay for any half-competent Python coder, as testing if lists are empty with if not is super-standard.