Ask Lemmy

Leave.

Have you seen the garbage dumps made up of the blades from wind farms that can't be recycled? As for far right, Hitler was a fascist. Today the fascists are the far left, people like Antifa who believe violence is okay, in order to achieve their political beliefs. Imposing your beliefs on others using violence is fascism, and the left definitely engages in it. While I don't think Putin is a good guy, it sounds like your Mom might be right about some things.

Feed them gotcha questions. Treat it as a mental exercise.

My therapist made a really great point when I brought up this exact issue with him. He asked if I value a relationship with my parents, and I said yes. Then he said that the price you have to pay for having a relationship with them, is never discussing politics.

It worked for a year or so, but then they voted for that rapist again, and I've since cut them out of my life. I'm not walking around on the eggshells of their bigotry and ignorance just so I can get some semblance of what some may describe as affection. You can only say/do so many shitty terrible things before I'm just done with you completely, and they hit their limit, so it was time to cash out.

Sorry, my advice of ignoring politics only works for a little while.

When I was younger, I would have argued till I was blue in the face. I've since learned to choose my battles and not waste my time and energy on battles I know I can't win... so I'd leave it alone as much as they allowed it, and eventually refuse to discuss it at all if needed.

OMG

I was born in PRC, and I immigrated to the US along with my family. They just look at WeChat all day, and regurgitate CCP propaganda, and also pro-maga propaganda which is kinda an interesting combo of propagandas, considering how maga is always anti-China. Keeps blaming Democrats for the "migrant crisis" like BRUH we are immigrants 🤦‍♂️.

They left for economic (and to some degree political) reasons. Its fucking hard to get a job in mainland China, like theres 1.4 billion people ye know what I mean. And there's no unions, no strikes, no workplace safety, no labor rights.

Yea they look at their current Union job in the US and still be like: "China wasn't that bad"

Also funny thing is: I was the second child to be born in my family... during the One Child Policy... 👀

So I was not supposed to be born, my parents violated CCP policy, and they would've killed me (as in a forced abortion) if they found me, so my mother had to hide until I was born, but even then, I didn't have legal documents (like birth certificates) until they paid a massive fine.

AND THEY ARE STILL SYMPATHETIC TO THE CCP 🤦‍♂️

Gee, thanks mom, guess if you love CCP so much, just let them take you away and force an abortion? At least I wouldn't have to deal with this fucked up world.

Like, that's my best argument against them every time they bring up pro-CCP views, I'd just be like (in Cantonese, obviously): "So you agree they should've killed me? Why didn't you just let them then?" that shuts them up every time.

I mean, this world is so bizzare, I feel like I'm on some Truman Show and everyone is just messing with me

There is a way to deradicalize people. It's not easy, but it's possible. I'm surprised this isn't more common information now, but here it is.

You need to understand that each of us builds our beliefs on a set of ideological structures. We believe in policies because of principles. We believe in principles because of foundations. All of these ideas reinforce each other and create our sense of self. Preservation of the self is the highest imperative, and so people resist persuasion with increasing ferocity the more foundational an idea feels to their sense of self.

The way around this is to convince them that their foundational beliefs support a different concept. In many ways, it's actually a bit like the premise of the Christopher Nolan film "Inception" without the technology: the person needs to essentially feel like they themselves discovered whatever idea you're trying to convince them of, based on their existing beliefs.

This means first understanding what their core beliefs are and why they feel that these support the policies and identies you're trying to change. Then you need to identify what can serve as a replacement, and find a way to get them to see the replacement as more appealing.

To put this into practice, can you tell me what you'd describe as their underlying principles? What are their fears and desires that shape their values? Common examples for conservatives include fear of change; a belief that life is a ruthless zero-sum game, and that we all most look out for our tribe or we will be exploited and subjugated by our adversaries. Conviction that tradition is a guide to keep us safe from reckless thinking, and that prescribed social roles and hierarchies are essential for our very survival.

If that's the case, you can't argue for progressivism by trying to convince them that we should all just love each other and welcome immigrants and that gender and sexual freedom are socially good. It's like trying to talk them into jumping off a bridge. Instead, you need to explain how if you want to look out for yourself and your family, you should do it in a different way. And these politicians who sound so convincing are secretly the kind of people that they already don't trust.

Keep in mind that replacing their faith in these kinds of leaders with your preferred political leaders is likely folly. People don't invert their ideological identities. You need a replacement that is a good match, and because politics are often polar, a better substitute for dangerous political attachments are often simply outside of politics entirely. This may be non-partisan faith communities or sports teams or local social clubs. But if you can find a new story that fits into their existing theory of the world and satisfies their ideological needs better than right-wing politics, you CAN get people to slowly stop watching YouTube conspiracy videos or stop spending their time in far-right Facebook groups in favor of something healthier.

All of this is hard to do, but it CAN be done. I find it very frustrating that this info is still somehow obscure considering how essential it is these days.

I gave up on my mother after she voted for Trump this past election. I had been accommodating her terrible beliefs by instating a "no politics" rule in 2020. But her helping him back into office again is too much. I have friends who he wants to harm and that's not acceptable to me.

Whenever I try to argue with them, they tell me that I’ve been brainwashed by “Western propaganda”.

I would ask "What makes you think so?" and go from there.

Likely the only viable way is to guide them into realizing where their biases come from, or that they're taking views over without questioning them.

If you seemingly can't change their opinions or views, and it burdens you, it's fine to accept different or opposing views. You can either evade those topics completely, and if necessary be vocal and explicit about that, or physically leave [the room] if necessary, or make your opposition clear while also making it clear that you have no interest in discussing it further.

My parents immigrated from "communist" Poland years ago and had similar conservative views. Abortion bad, church good, black people lazy, etc... It took years of discussions and disagreement to get them to think in a more progressive way, and yes, having siblings helps. And if you can convince one parent, they can help you convince the other.

I truly believe that art is one of the best ways to alter the way people think. I found that watching movies/documentaries with my parents that had strong ecological and humanitarion viewpoints were a great way to start these discussions. Movies about topics like systemic racism, homophobia, corporate greed/fraud, environmental destruction, religious abuse, etc...

For example, the Netflix documentary '13th' have real insight into how the systemic racism uses poverty to keep marginalized people poor and desperate enough to commit crimes. Which are then blamed on their skin color rather than their on economic situation.

We consciously make an effort to either not talk about certain topics or we try to not get too deep into certain topics. This doesn’t always work and we clash, but the clashes don’t cause as much trouble as they used to.

Often I just listen to them and try to support them through the concerns they have. I’m aware that they influence me, being aware helps to either ask them or myself critical questions.

Friends & Family > politics

Now one could argue I’m not serious with my stance and I’m weakly backboned. Id answer that this is my family and I’d advise you don’t put politics over friends & family or you will end up alone at some point.

I think a psychologist would say that if you really can't find common ground, it's best to agree not to talk about it.

Indoctrination is highly effective. Your parents were raised in a place where toeing the line is the norm and questioning those in power is traditionally a great way to ensure you disappear. Russians are deeply indoctrinated when compared to western nations because that's how their society has been set up since 1922. The Soviet leadership ruled by suppressing any dissent, violently and without remorse. Just because the Soviet Union no longer exists, doesn't mean their ways of doing things disappeared too.

The only way to change them would be to engage in an equally sophisticated program of indoctrination: deprogramming as it's called. Since you lack the resources of the Soviet Union, it would be a much more difficult task, especially since your parents are now older and their brains are less changeable. They were indoctrinated as children and by a very prolific system. Reversing that now, by yourself, is a tall order.

I'm sorry your parents were failed by their leadership, it's truly a shame.

Get away from them as soon as its feasible.

Should I just declare to never talk about politics with them again since it’s pointless?

Yes. I thought that was obvious, when have you ever seen children being able to convert their parents?

Nothing you can do.

It’s not uncommon for people who lived under harsh authoritarians to still support that methodology even if they emigrate to a more moderate and tolerant society to escape the shit country for a better life. Cubans, Russians, even some of my own family members who lived under one of the most infamous dictators of all, they have the same sentiment about their own fascist leader: “At least Hitler made the trains run on time.” Even if it isn’t true, the dictator would bash heads and keep the apple cart from being upset - not because doing so made anyone’s life better…quite the opposite. Bashing heads and keeping order prevented things like crackdowns, purges, arrests and the like that made lives worse.

Oh hey we're in the exact same boat! My parents are from Russia too and moved to Germany about 20 years ago. If the bureaucracy here wasn't that slow, they would have had citizenship by now and 100% both voted AfD.

We never had a decent relationship and I'm not concerned about preserving anything, so the goal is to just fully cut all contact at some point 🤷
Until then, I just act ignorant whenever they bring up politics (like literally pretending to not know who Trump is, because "what, why would I pay attention to niche american politics, they're literally an ocean away??").
Works pretty well, sometimes it even does make them retrospect about why they would care so much about seemingly random topics (because Russian propaganda channels train them to react to specific buzzwords).
Ultimately, I don't think they would ever change into better people and any energy put into changing their minds would be better used somewhere else.

Tell them this, Can't buy a house under Republicans,can't buy a house under Democrats, while it's great it worked out for them. You are not represented as a voter and they need to get their heads out of their ass. That is, if they try to push conservative ideas. Otherwise, let them be happy and stupid. The misery is coming for them eventually, so why rush them.

My parents are more right wing than me and I tend to just change to conversation topic or make non-commital comments about their opinions.

From my perspective it seems like a general trend towards becoming more right wing for a lot of older people and I'm definitely not going to change their mindset which has been set over 75+ years. I try to just enjoy the time I have with them while I still have them.

What's more important to you: having a relationship with them or changing their views? I don't mean this as some kind of "gotcha" thing. This is the choice you need to make.

You already have your simplest solution to this (don't talk politics with them), but you made this post because you don't like that solution.

Thankfully most things in life aren't so black and white. It's possible that you can work on them very very softly and slowly over time, but this all comes down to what you can stand in order to keep your relationship with them.

I personally think that attempting to avoid political topics with them is the best direction to go here, but it's not my parents or my choice to make for you.

I virtually never discuss politics with my parents. I don't have a clue about which party they even vote for.

Block their access to propaganda channels. Don't tell them you are doing this. Make it look like it's malfunctioning, if you can. Expose them more to educational material.

Example: Swap fox sub with vox. Set the child lock on their tv. Domain filter facebook in their router or throttle the service to make it unpleasant to use. Set up url redirects. Get them a stack of dvds. Proper entertainment is better than propaganda. They watch that crap cause they are lazy and it's easy.

If they give up and switches to a more sane channel for their entertainment, politics or otherwise, you have succeeded.

The idea is to remove them from the constant barrage of propaganda from bad actors. If they stop hearing about "evil trans people" every ten minutes, they will probably become uninterested after a while.

Sorry dude, there's nothing you can do. They're not going to change their beliefs regardless of what you say or do. Ya either gotta accept that this is who they are and find a way to work around it, or you cut off all ties and go your separate ways. It really sucks but there's no reason to waste your energy on something futile. It will be a waste of time and just leave you disappointed and upset.

You can't win, unless you delete their social media. There is nothing you can say or do that won't be erased by their next Facebook visit. They are also co-dependent and will not divert from their course individualy

If you live with them it could be tricky but let them know you will not be talking politics or any kind of emotionally charged topic with them going forward. Lets keep it light and stick to the things we agree on and leave everything else at the door. Avoid talking about them or saying you or sounding accusatory to minimize defensiveness, just let them know these topics and conversations are not how you want to use your time and energy and thinking anymore.

If they start trying to drag you into a forbidden topic, simply let them know you are heading off to do something since you dont have anything to add or contribute to topics that you are uncomfortable with like you mentioned to them before.

Start with this and let us know if they bite. I've got some other ideas but start with this and see how it goes. At the end of the day, engaging in these kinds of discussions over and rehashed constantly is damaging and pointless so the key is transcending them by not participating in them or feeding the wrong wolf. Be polite and respectful but also assertive that you will not be dealing with these topics any longer

Is "here" in the US? Or somewhere else in the West? I'm mostly asking because I could probably give more concrete tips if it were in Germany.

Have they ever met a refuge from Ukraine? Did they talk with them?

As for things like wind parks or climate policies or economics I think it is important to find a way to present that as "this is directly financially beneficial for you". Here in Germany, let's say, different independent financial institutions have calculated the total tax burden based on your income bracket if different parties were in power and went through with their plans. And lo and behold, of course FDP, CDU and AfD would have very much increased the tax burden on low to middle income people. Or they calculated that the great sounding plans of these parties would cost like 150 billion euros - which is an incredibly high sum - and explaining this away with "oh we'll make the economy prosper" doesn't work either (more calculations that are irrelevant if you're not in Germany).

My honest tip is don't make it about ideology. If you want to keep talking about politics, don't talk about liberation. Don't talk about foreigners, nazis, climate change, DEI or LGBTQ. Your best bet is money. And safety maybe. But as others have suggested - reconsider whether you even want to throw pearls at swine and try to convince them of something different.

And don't forget that a lot of behavior is a reaction of fear. In the beginning of the war there was a great podcast episode of Екатерина Шульман where she tried to emphasize that in times of aggression, it is a very natural response of the psyche to align with the aggressor. Your parents neither want to see the country they came from, love and probably idealize (as we always do with our past, especially when we don't fully beling somewhere new) as the Bad Guy, nor do they want to be scared - for their country, for their future, for their relatives, for you.

Also, I just want to say, my condolences, and I deal with similar stuff. My family is either apolitical or opportunistic, and the best case scenario is "well both sides are bad". I've been scared to call my grandpa who has первый канал running 24/7 for a year after the war started, I can guess what side he is on. If you ever want to just vent about how awful and difficult it is, feel free to write me.

I moved out when I was 18 and mostly don't talk to much of my biological family.