That Logitech joystick model was a staple HID (Human Interface Device) and wireless peripheral for many robotics researchers and corporations. Pairing and range was better than any 2010's Bluetooth, and more compatible than OEM or hobby grade RF controllers. So many ROS projects used those. If both Xbox and PS DualShock controllers get cought amidst similar public ridicule, then we'll have nothing left! 🎮🙃

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I remember using them in my high school robotics club. And honestly, I think the controller was probably one of the least sketchy things about the sub. Lots of fields use game controllers to handle equipment since they're well designed for that. There were many other things that were far worse.

[–] ruffsl 15 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yep, I've seen reporting of Navy's using them for controlling periscopes on submarines (now that most are drive by wire), or Air forces using them for piloting drones, as well as for teleoperated robotic thoracic surgeries.

The widespread user familiarity and benefits in transferable hand coordination skills with common gaming based HID economics is hard to refute. Although, I'm guessing the market for safety certified joysticks will uptick.

[–] Zxmon 2 points 1 year ago

to be fair no one in their right mind would use a wireless controller for something like a submersible

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 years ago

I mean they are all using first party xbox controllers, not a logitech knockoff that sucked even 10 years ago compared to first party 360 controllers.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 2 years ago (4 children)

That wasn't the dumb part of that submersible. Game controllers are actually really good at what they do. The dumb part is that it was built like an airplane.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Built like an airplane out of materials that were past their shelf life even for airplanes:

Only one thing concerned me: He said he had gotten the carbon fiber used to make the Titan at a big discount from Boeing because it was past its shelf-life for use in airplanes.

I asked him if that weren't a problem. He replied that those dates were set far before they had to be, and that Boeing and even NASA had participated in the design and testing of the Titan.

It is a conversation I have thought about a great deal over the past week.

https://www.travelweekly.com/North-America-Travel/Mission-Titanic-Part-2

Also, Boeing denied being involved, and NASA stated that they had given advice but not been involved in testing:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/23/titanic-submarine-submersible-implosion-recovery-live-updates/70349511007/

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago

Yikes.

and that Boeing and even NASA had participated in the design and testing of the Titan.

They keep repeating that, and I was wondering WTF that means. Neither of those people have a mandate or any experience with submersibles (at least, I think, maybe there's a weird Boeing spinoff). They could contribute just to the basic structural considerations, but they'd need to take resources away from their actual jobs for that so they wouldn't.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Fucking hell, that's horrendous

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

No, using a wireless controller was pretty dumb

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

An airplane with no safety checks

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Ok, but how many of those projects will result in death if one of the thumb sticks gets stuck or if the Bluetooth loses signal?

[–] auv_guy 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If it results in death when the controller stops working, you have a serious issue with the system architecture and should work on that instead of trying to improve the controller.

[–] ruffsl 8 points 2 years ago

Out in the wild? Perhaps quite a few. For example, for teleoperated robotic thoracic surgeries, I imagine medical grade HID should mandate safety certified hardware that doesn't rely on electrically noisy mechanical potentiometers, subject to Dead zone drift, or non-deterministic dead man behavior under failure modes. Although I'm certain there's various reasons not to use hall effect sensing devices even within the same facility as MRI machines.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Batteries in the controller run out and you forgot to bring any more double As

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Maybe you add an extra controller. But that's already pushing it, because as people already said, you losing the controller shouldn't be fatal.

IMO, it would better if there was a wired one. But you wont get anything more reliable than a high-quality mass produced item. The controller is not one of the problems with that sub.

[–] ruffsl 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Textual transcription of meme: (two panels)
First panel: laughing group of people gathered around a phone, captioned:
"The Internet laughing at the Titan submersible using a Logitech controller"

Second panel: the Awkward Look Monkey Puppet meme, captioned:
"The robotics community"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There's so many input devices that have drivers baked into the modern Linux kernels that I've not had an issue using any device in the past 10 years (wired or wireless/Bluetooth). Sometimes that device requires windows for some companion software (like to control rgb), but input functionality still just works.

[–] ruffsl 3 points 2 years ago

Yeah, it was real nice once the kernel modules for PS DS3/4 finally shipped with Android's mainline. Although, it's still a pain that one needs to recompile the module to disable the rumble or LED when games using the device do not expose user level override settings.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I just feel like maybe you shouldn't use Bluetooth when it's life and death.

[–] ruffsl 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

If I recall, this controller was wireless via Logitech's proprietary 2.4Ghz USB dongle, but yes, weird would be better. I'm also surprised they still used wireless due to battery concerns, such as being an additional fire hazard in a confined space, or unexpected power loss during critical maneuvers, and not just from the connectivity liability of RF.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

I thought I read that the pilot/CEO kept back up controllers on the craft, in case something went wrong with the first. But that still seems janky to me, lol. Wired would make me a lot more comfortable. But, it's a moot point anyway, since the controller wasn't the cause of the failure. The carbon fiber is what fucked them.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Yeah, the cintrols were a red herring. It didn't cause the sub to implode.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

An old game controller is still more reliable than your in-house button board