this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024
17 points (58.6% liked)

Asklemmy

43780 readers
864 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy 🔍

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Assuming the title to be accurate, what is a good way for the working class (90%+ of all humans) to save and succeed in this current environment?

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 66 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Fiat doesn’t work on a finite planet.

Citations needed.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I’m unsure of what a finite planet is referencing? Is op suggesting that economic limits are constrained to finite resources? This doesn’t take into account renewables, human creativity and a whole list of other things. If we create a matrix like environment where the limits can be expanded and create new products in that new environment we can still use fiat.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 months ago

I don’t know why they’re conflating infinite money with finite resources. The two have no relationship to each other.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

I think we need more restrictions on finances, so our human creativity can effect. What I see is that most advanced civilizations' largest export is literal trash due to excess and waste, so I figured why not have a discussion about it

Also, every fiat currency has failed in the two ways it can: hyperinflation or clout loss due to no trust in the issuing party (which tends to lead to hyperinflation). Innovation has stalled or at least hit the top of the S curve over the last 50 years, with mostly remixes of old ideas that tend to expedite the finite resources we have, so I don't think technology will outpace inflation

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Technically, Planet Earth is huge for us because we cannot use it efficiently or in a reasonable time, and we don't even have to talk about the sun.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 55 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Why would I assume the title is accurate? I've never heard this criticism of fiat currency before, since the whole point is that it doesn't rely on on scarcity but on the stability of the issuing body. Can you explain, or is that outside the scope of this thread?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The issue is those closer to the money printer get the biggest rewards (according to the US Fed's description of their stakeholders) so as they increase their supply of currency they can accumulate more goods, outpacing the rest of the classes which have to suffer through inflation, which debases their money, keeps wages low and goods prices increase

In an evenly distributed and fully observable currency supply which can rise and lower as needed, there is no inherent issue with fiat currencies as long as the issuing party is reputable and wages increase at the same pace (up or down) with all prices

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 3 months ago (3 children)

The objection about a "finite planet" is about capitalism, not currency. A 100% communist system can still have fiat currency and function perfectly well, the two aren't even related.

It's capitalism you don't like, not money.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Communism: A classless, moneyless society, based on the principle of "to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability".

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I think you’re conflating communism and socialism a bit.

Communism is a classless society where it is “from each according to their ability to each according to their needs”. Moneyless is often mentioned as well, but I don’t think it’s strictly necessary.

Socialism is a transitional stage on the way to communism, where the working class controls the state (having taken it from the capitalist class’ control), and it is usually described as “from each according to their ability to each according to their labor,” though when they say that I don’t think they really mean that those who can’t perform labor should simply starve.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I don't understand why you think that guy was conflating communism and socialism. He claimed communism is moneyless, and in your response you said "neither is moneyless." What's being conflated?

And it's worth noting that most definitions include, if not expressly the word "moneyless," clauses about all property being held in common. And if there is no property, then there is equally no money, by definition (as money is simply a system for the valuation and exchange of property).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Yeah you’re right. Sorry, @[email protected]!

I didn’t say that neither is moneyless, only that I don’t think it’s strictly necessary for a society to be moneyless in order to be considered communist.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

It's a question of the most stable thing to use to mediate value for exchange of goods and services, right? Fiat currency is just the choice of "the state" as a stabilizing force. Certainly it's better than trusting the scarcity of rare metals, but eventually "just trust the state" will become a problem, and we'll need to think about rebasing currencies. In theory, computational complexity isn't a bad choice, but nobody has come up with a solution that actually functions well as a currency.

But I agree, the finite planet has nothing to do with any failings of fiat currencies, and only makes sense as a failing of the "number must go up" mentality endemic to capitalism.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 3 months ago (4 children)

what is a good way for the working class (90%+ of all humans) to save

Gonna sound like a dangerous lemmy communist, but vote for parties who want to raise wages and join Union to defend your rights. The main problem is that most working class struggle to finish the month without a negative bank account, once it's solved, saving become possible again

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

You sound like a decent social-democrat to me

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 months ago (9 children)

The title isn't accurate, so I can't assume it is.

Fiat currency works precisely because the planet is finite. What you're thinking of is a currency that's tied to a finite resource, like a gold standard. Fiat currency works precisely because monetary supply is able to be increased to keep pace with both the population and economic growth. Likewise, fiat currency can be removed from the economy when the economy shrinks (although this hasn't happened before).

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Finding pockets of self sufficiency, or at least ways to prevent falling down to the bottom.

Universal basic income helps this by making sure everyone has at least enough to live on.

Homesteading and community gardens help this by making sure you at least have some basic amount of food available to you.

Building walkable cities helps.this by allowing you to avoid or reduce the expenses of a car.

Building resilient cities that leverage adaptive reuse help this by making it cheaper to start new small community businesses that keep money local.

The solutions aren't in the system of money we choose, it's in building small sustainable ways to provide for basic needs, even in a small way.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Fiat can work fine on a finite planet, most money doesn't even take up physical space anymore, just bits in an account ledger database. Ideally in the future governments will make sure their currency is backed or based on labor time, and nothing is technologically preventing that, nor is crypto-currency required for it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

The issue here is according to the Fed, the stakeholders get a 6% return, which is supposed to outpace inflation. So if the ones closest to the money printer get more every year, while the rest lose money due to inflation eating it, it doesn't matter if it could theoretically work, it leads to an accumulation to the class system at the top while the lower classes must continually work forever since their savings are worth less every year

[–] [email protected] 21 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I can confirm, I've had two Fiats and neither worked properly

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That's a bummer, I was hoping they were built better. Are they at least fun to drive?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

The little 500s are hilarious to drive, and a nightmare to own

Really shit quality and always have been

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 months ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Stockpile canned beans they will become the most valuable currency once the WW3 starts.

#NotAFinancialAdvice

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

What makes you think that "crypto has failed on it's goals"?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 months ago

That's a good question, because as a scam it has worked wonderfully.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

Not OP, but as someone who was at one point excited by the potential of crypto, the ecosystem has moved more and more towards what it claimed to stand against initially

It's supposed to be decentralized, but things like mining pools have lead to heavy amounts of centralization in block production. If we look at Bitcoin, for an example, we see that over 51% of block production is controlled by just two mining pools. That's not limited to just Proof of Work mining either. Proof of stake sees centralization in staking pools as well. That's only just looking at one aspect of the network

It has also not really been seen as a currency. People's view of it as an "investment" which have the opposite qualities you really want to see. People are encouraged to hold it and never let go, meaning they won't want to spend it which is adverse to its use as a currency. This has also lead to it being incorporated and dominated by the very financial systems it was initially supposed to move away from

I don't want to type out an essay, but I could keep going on in other ways that's not really lived up to its promises.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Well, this is a fair criticism... of Bitcoin :)

It's supposed to be decentralized, but things like mining pools have lead to heavy amounts of centralization in block production. If we look at Bitcoin, for an example, we see that over 51% of block production is controlled by just two mining pools. That's not limited to just Proof of Work mining either. Proof of stake sees centralization in staking pools as well. That's only just looking at one aspect of the network

Centralization of mining pools (and mining in general) is indeed a serious problem. In Monero we now have p2pool which is totally decentralized. For now it's just shy of having 10% of total hash power, so there is a long road ahead, but we are moving there. ASIC resistant RandomX also helps to ensure mining decentralization.

It has also not really been seen as a currency. People's view of it as an "investment" which have the opposite qualities you really want to see. People are encouraged to hold it and never let go, meaning they won't want to spend it which is adverse to its use as a currency. This has also lead to it being incorporated and dominated by the very financial systems it was initially supposed to move away from

I don't think this applies to Monero, which is more or less the only currency used in DNMs.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (8 children)

Socialism. The problem here isn’t with currency, it’s with capitalism.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago
[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Realize that all forms of currency are ultimately a grift to allow a class of violent weirdos to claim ownership over the fruits of our labor and that we could actually just share things with each other without commerce

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Barter. Learn a tradable skill. Build a group of friends.

But also save money.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Buy jewelry, gold and silver coins, gemstones, rolls of silk, fine pelts, expensive spices like vanilla beans (avoid saffron though, its perishable), fine porcelains and maybe a rare painting or two. Put it all in a big wooden chest with a big iron padlock on it, and bury it in your backyard. Then draw some sort of cryptic map to it in case you die unexpectedly, or forget where your backyard is or something.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Also traps, lots of traps - something fancy like blowpipes shooting darts when an intruder steps on the wrong stone of a floor puzzle, maybe even a large an perfectly spherical stone that rolls towards intruders if the weight of your chest is altered.

There's a series of documentaries about such things were a professor of Archeology - a Dr. Jones, if I'm not mistaken - illustrates their workings.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Good advice, thank you for sharing

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Gold and silver.

load more comments
view more: next ›