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Even At-will employment doesn't mean they can fire you for any reason.
The reasons in which they couldn't are for protected classes like race, religion, etc. Though they can always just, you know, lie.
Aye, there's the rub. If you can't prove it was discriminatory then you're SOL.
The great thing about bigots is most tend to be fucking stupid. Plenty of stories of people being explicitly told in writing they were being fired over something with title IX protections.
They can fire you even in the protected parts as well. Because at will places DON'T HAVE TO STATE THE REASON YOU WERE FIRED. I know plenty of people including myself who was fired even though I was supposed to be protected. But since they never stated reason for firing you then good luck proving it. At will you can fired for looking funny or manger just feels like it.
I live in shit hole states that are at will there is zero protections for employees in these states.
I live in an at will employment state and have been a manager for quite some time. I’ve never seen an employee actually terminated for their protected status race, religion, etc. It’s always been because they had poor performance and/or attendance issues and didn’t want to get better. If you aren’t a solid average then it’s develop up or out. This isn’t my POV, this is the reality of the performance conversations I’ve been involved with. Personal accountability is a major problem these days. If you have none then you won’t have a job for long. The good news is that if you’re solid in those areas then you will be valuable to your employer. This is why so many military applicants get picked up. They have a basis for attendance and completing the mission.
Having said that, I’m sure you’re correct and discrimination does happen because their employer lied. I just think that it doesn’t happen quite as often as believed. Many poor performers I’ve known have outright lied about why they were actually terminated.
I don't think individual anecdotes are that useful here. For example, a dude I worked with reported his old boss was extremely racist and made all sorts of hiring decisions based on race and stereotypes. Is that common? You'd have to find or do some studies to find out.
That's not even touching implicit bias and friends. Perhaps when the white guy is late it's traffic, but when the black guy is late it's because he's irresponsible. That kind of thinking happens all the time, to all of us.
This isn’t my POV, this is the reality of the performance conversations I’ve been involved with.
Pick one
I upvoted your comment for being insightful, not trying to dismiss what you're saying. I get where you're coming from, and I agree that what you're saying is likely true for most businesses, but there are other people who's reality of conversations they have been involved with resulted in being fired unfairly.
Though they can always just, you know, lie.
Which they do. Quite often even. Shitty employers also employ shitty behaviors like consistently giving poor performance reviews regardless of actual performance. This gives them a paper trail to fire you on a whim, and it gives them an excuse to not give raises. "Just find a better job then!". Unfortunately these types of companies prey on the disadvantaged who typically don't have many options or the luxury of finding something better.
Yes, which is why you as the employee need to always have a “paper trail”. Make sure everything is written down, either on paper or electronically. After any phone call or in person meeting, make sure you follow up with an email that recaps what you discussed. BCC your personal email to make sure you retain a copy of the communications. Do not trust your employers to keep your email intact.
And never, ever, sign anything when you’re fired. Refuse any “exit interviews”; remember that anything you say can and will be held against you. No matter what your employer says, they absolutely cannot withhold your paycheck because you refuse to sign or interview when you lose your job.
It might also be worth looking up your state’s laws on recording conversations. For example, in North Carolina, you only need one person’s consent to record conversations. And since you’re a part of that conversation, your consent is all you need. So if you have to, record your “one-on-one meetings/phone calls”. But absolutely do not reveal that to your employers.
Are you saying they can't fire a priest for being Muslim? More that is interesting. 😁
Before anyone gets excited, 49 out of 50 states are at-will. So the purpose of this post isn’t about being mistaken about their ability to be shitcanned, only that they’re mistaken about the type of law that allows it.
Who is down voting this info?
If you believe this is incorrect, please state it lol
I downvoted because it doesn't give a good description of right-to-work and/or at-will employment, or include differences or the way the law applies in different areas. It's too broad of a post without enough specific relevant application to local law scenarios. It's opening a can of worms and could be misunderstood.
You're got to be kidding. The post is about right to work laws. It includes a summary of what that means, plus links for more information. So you downvoted because OP didn't compare and contrast two unrelated laws or write a dissertation on how right to work laws vary by state/county/city. Laws that by definition literally only do one thing. This shit is why people don't post more.
To highlight how ridiculous your comment is, I'll help OP out and provide what you found to be so lacking. I know this is going to make OP look pretty bad, so I'm sure they'll provide at least a partial refund of what you paid for their post.
At-will employment: you can be fired for anything not protected by law.
Right to work laws: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues.
Compare: they are applied to employees Contrast: neither does anything similar
For my next trick, I'll provide specific relevant application for local law scenarios by state.
Alabama: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Arkansas: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Georgia: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Idaho: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Indiana: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Iowa: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Kansas: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Kentucky: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Louisiana: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Michigan: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Mississippi: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Nebraska: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
North Carolina: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
North Dakota: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Oklahoma: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
South Carolina: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
South Dakota: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Tennessee: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Texas: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Utah: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Virginia: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Washington: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
West Virginia: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Wisconsin: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Wyoming: employees in unionized workplaces cannot negotiate employment contracts which require that non union employees must pay union dues
Thank you for your service.
So far we have yet to ID what is wrong with OP beyond that tdownvoters did not like the message or how it was delivered.
What if you contribute instead of or in addition to downvoting? That way, people understand the downvote and/or get more information and clarity.
GTFO of here, this is ~~Reddit~~ Lemmy. Anyone providing anything useful for free must be subjected to intensely unfair scrutiny or the whole system falls apart.
/s
But really, this place is increasingly turning into Reddit and it's depressing.
I appreciate the intent but this is just what happens when you put yourself out on the Internet. Hell, on an old account I made a post about how to use a waffle sandwich maker with cheddar biscuit mix and it was 10% downvoted. I think it's some combination of valid (if unstated) criticism, accidental downvotes, and some people just being assholes.
I don't care, I'm just trying to provide what I think is useful information. If people have a problem but don't speak up about it, I can't do anything so I'm not going to worry about it. As another poster mentioned below, they're welcome to a full refund. I'll even triple it. Triple refund!
All fair points, i like the vibe.
I look at down vote ratio for sentiment and to ID who else is commenting. With bot nets, paid shills and shit nowadays, got to keep an eye on what is going beyond what people are saying was more of my point about it.
Tinfoil on: for example anti labor positioned actor would down voted factually correct post like this merely because it benefits some wage slave. They act like this when they can't engage on the topic honestly.
tankie litmus test: Did Mao and Stalin do anything wrong... watch them work that one 🤣
Why worry about the downvoters. This isn't reddit yet.
on reddit you don't get to see the ratio and spytube removed downvote all together, i think you need an extension to view?
wonder why?
Seeing the ratio can be useful
I'm on blahaj so I don't see downvotes. I'm guessing people who (incorrectly) think my statement of the details of the law is my support for it.
I do not know why these two concepts are so frequently conflated and misunderstood, but they absolutely are.
Thanks for the solid clarification. At-will and RTW are two very different concepts, and off the top of my head, forty-nine of the fifty states are at-will. The 50th state isn't all that different (MT), just a bit nuanced: "Montana defaults to a probationary period, after which termination is only lawful if for good cause"
“Right to leech” is more accurate, but harder to sell