Come one come all to the Lemmy-verse! It's nice and cozy here, we do have some "bad parts of town" but you can do an instance block and not deal with them lol
For your memes we have [email protected] if you like sciency posts mander.xyz has some excellent communities (communities=subreddits) like [email protected] and [email protected] and for a meme science combo theres always the fantastic [email protected]
You can also drop a shit(post) off at [email protected] or hang out at [email protected] (though you do have to post before you leave that one!)
There's much more around as well!
Obligatory, fuck Spez
Ukrainian leadership declared themselves Nazis. They’ve recently spent millions erecting monuments of famous Nazis, and are naming streets after them. Their soldiers are literally covered in Nazi symbols.
When someone tells you themselves that they’re a Nazi, why do you think your beliefs overrule their own self-image?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/03/08/wdtz-m08.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-leader-slams-kyiv-for-naming-streets-after-nazi-collaborators
WSWS is a biased "trotskyist" rag and this is an opinion piece whingeing about Ukraine throwing off the shackles of soviet oppression written by the leader of a former Ukrainian political party that was banned for having ties to Russia. Opinion disregarded
The TOI link you posted lists its source as a tweet which no longer exists.
Neither link claims "Ukrainian leadership declared themselves Nazis"
Wow this conversation is really something.
WSWS is actually garbage, as a trotskyist we think these people are cranks. Gotta respect the hustle, their magazine has a far reach and they aren't 1000% terrible. But a friend of mine claims that the closest he's ever come to being the victim of political violence was at a WSWS convention.
Ukraine actually banned all their left wing political parties and it wasn't actually because of Russian ties. Not saying the ties didnt exist in this instance, or in other instances, but it isnt evidence of complete ideological corruption by Russia of the far left. Denial of Nazi influence and Banderist militias is a denial of history. The Maidan revolution was a US backed operation, the US knowingly and explicitly funded Far right Nazi militias for years in the lead up to this conflict. The US baited Russia into Ukraine hoping for a protracted war to weaken them and their anti US influence. The associations are plain and not just Russian propaganda. Ukraine has always had a Nazi problem, as many countries, including the US, also do. And why not? Nazis are frothing violent nationalists who hate communism and socialism. So to the western imperialists, Nazis are and have been useful for decades, and explicitly in the Ukraine since 2014, but not just since the Russian invasion.
However,
I understand the position of US defeatism, and probably strategically agree with it. But like communists are supposed to be better analysts, we don't base our analysis on whatever the opposite of our enemies say, we are supposed to ground our conclusions in historical circumstances, material relations, and by uniting objective fact with subjective truth. A popular front with Russia is a losing proposal, and progressive liberals are more correct for opposing it. But the facts are in, the Ukrainians were done dirty by "the west" long before the Russians invaded. They don't deserve an invasion, and they don't deserve to have their economy raided and they don't deserve to have the far right funded by the US and its allies, and their left wing dismantled by the corrupt Ukrainian government, who is not made just by a just defensive war, if in fact it can be accurately called that. Like in some ways yes, but other ways no, and still others it is very unclear.
Liberals should learn more history and Commies should actually learn dialectical materialism instead of abandoning it for disasterous popular frontism.
Finally a nuanced left wing take.
The left isn't supposed to be an echo chamber, we are supposed to "ruthlessly criticize all that exists" especially our selves. People who don't understand their own beliefs are capable of being tricked into anything. "When education isn't liberating, it is the dream of the oppressed to become the oppressor."
I'm just some dumb guy no one listens to so I appreciate the comment.
You want more? Oh man, have I got more! I’ll try to stick to whitewashed sources you’d like.
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-738940
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna198961
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1290946
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-us-weapons-azov-a3a555670bedeae2022900621d79aba7
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2022/04/08/progressives-in-greece-reject-zelenskys-address-to-parliament-with-neo-nazis/
I feel like nuance is dead for you. Black and white and whatever makes for justification.
So, your statement that the country is Nazi and doesn't deserve support is people voting for a street name to a guy they forgot was a Nazi like most of NASA in the US or many businesses in Germany and that there are more alt right groups acting up and joining civilian battalions which is true of Italy, Germany, Poland, USA, India, Russia, Argentina, Philippines, etc...
You have taken a piece to willingly believe the whole you want.
A person can be an abusive parent but a great teacher, people can be great caregivers but racist, countries can be invaded by others for resources while struggling with internal issues.
I'm not sure you have a point here other than that because they have an issue within them they deserve anything that happens to them. It's a false purity test cause nothing passes. When chickens do this in the wild they end up pecking each other to death trying to get the blood off each other. Do not have the same mentality as a chicken.
In my experience, the only people who want to talk about “nuance” with Nazis are themselves Nazis.
Back to pure black and white with you. It mentioned Nazi somewhere, so a stance against discussion itself. If that was about ideology I get it, no nuance to a person wanting oppression of others, but you are just using the concept to block the conversation on whether you are right or wrong to be able to pass judgement on an entire country.
You use it as an excuse to not think critically and ease your mind on a complicated issue.
It's like you are using the phrases incorrectly to be devoid of empathy not with. Well I read your links, engaged to see what your point is and find it still to be nothing other than a false purity test to disconnect yourself.
You do not engage with reality so I will not engage with you.
The people who focus on the “nuance” of Nazi symbols always seem surprised to find themselves in league with Nazis. LoL.
No
K. Try hanging out with people who wear traditional Nazi symbols, but explain it away with “nuance.” Find out how many turn out to be actual Nazis.
Duh.
No to your LOL.
No to your insisting on the deserved pain you seem to think justified.
No to your childish perceptions.
No to your lack on introspection and critical thought.
No to your thought that all must be damned for the sins of others.
The no is to you. I reject you. You aren't even having a conversation and I don't care about your personal held superiority.
Oh it’s not just me. Most people on the planet believe Nazi lives don’t matter. Including Nazi adjacent.
I'm not claiming that there has never been Nazis in Ukraine. The Holodomor was pretty fresh in the minds of Ukrainians when Germany invaded and whether you believe it was an intentional ploy by Stalin to quell succession movements the USSR states or not it was definitely seen as one by many in the population. Collaborating with any invading force under the context of millions of your countrymen appearing to have been murdered by the state is frankly unsurprising.
The people having streets named after them in Ukraine may have been Nazis but is that the reason they are being "honored"? Most articles across the political spectrum tend to gloss over the actual reasons. one of the ones you posted even says "The Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine [and presumably others] avoids mentioning Kubiyovych’s Nazi past, instead focusing on his work before and after World War II" so the answer to that seems to be an emphatic no. Would i personally rename a street after him knowing what i know about him? definitely not. but it's not about Nazism, it's about forging a national identity separate from that of their historic oppressors.
Russia does not care about denazifying ukraine, if Putin cared about Nazis he wouldn't have allowed this guy to become second in command of his chief black ops battalion.
Ukraine has had problems with nationalism, but that does not a "Nazi" state make and the trend including with Azov has been away from problematic fascistic ideology.
Russia on the other hand has been increasingly embracing fascistic traits. Wikipedia defines fascism as "a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy." Most of which are traits that Russia has comfortably ticked for well over a decade, Ukraine on the other hand has not.
And still none of the links you posted make mention of "Ukrainian leadership declar[ing] themselves Nazis" as was your original claim
You mistakenly believe my opposition to Nazis is support for Russia. It is not.
This is not team sports. This is real life.
"I don't support Russia but do exclusively parrot their talking points and refuse to accept that Ukraine could be a victim"
Correct, and real life is not Black and White, it is shades of Grey. Ukraine has existed in the grey of history for as long as it was subjugated by Russia
Ukraine is absolutely a victim. The US and NATO personnel responsible for toppling their government in the 2014 Maiden Coup should be tried and hanged. As well as those who have abused Ukraine for another proxy war with Russia.
I'm glad we agree on something then, even if we don't on the reason why
Yeaaa ookkk tankie, I'm sure those websites aren't biased and spreading propaganda/misinformation at all LMAO
you've been tagged
So you’re denying Ukraine is doing this? Or am I a tankie for pointing it out? All it takes to be a tankie is pointing out someone is calling themself a Nazi?
You’ve taken this so far, you’re entering into Nazi sympathizer/collaborator territory.
The US Congress had to lift a ban on arming Nazis in order to send arms to Ukraine. Now tell me how it’s somehow my fault for pointing that out.
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-us-weapons-azov-a3a555670bedeae2022900621d79aba7
Do you guys read the sources you post or just the headlines?
Yes, I am aware AP has been whitewashing for fascists for a while. But Congress is not bound by what Moscow believes. Congress had to lift the ban on arming Nazis to send Ukraine weapons, because it’s also what the US believes.
You know who also believes Ukraine is currently governed by a Nazi regime? The soldiers covering their uniforms in Nazis patches, the politicians naming streets after Nazis, and the Ukrainians openly declaring ‘I am a Nazi.’
If the Ukraine was so Nazi, why didn't Russia go to the UN and create a multi-country coalition to remove the Nazis and save the people?
And why would these Nazis elect a Jew?
They did: https://www.rferl.org/amp/us-ukraine-vote-against-russian-resolution-condemning-nazism-united-nations-/28125450.html
Modern Nazis are far more anti-Muslim than anti-Jew. Especially if that Jewish person is a Zionist, there’s a lot of overlap in their ideology.
Why would you discredit your own proof once it’s pointed out that it isn’t proof?
Why not link directly to Ukraine’s statement?
Let’s establish the goalposts, so you can’t move them later. What would be adequately convincing, beyond a military covered in Nazi symbols and Ukrainian politicians erecting monuments of Nazis?
How is it we can correctly identify Musk is a Nazi from a salute, but y’all struggle with this mountain of evidence?
Maybe don’t say your own proof can’t be trusted and again use primary sources
Lil Ruski is mad they're losing. ://
Running low on orcs, perhaps?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1daqi53/the_most_graphicclearenemy_visible_combat_footage/
Do you know who never called themselves nazis btw? The actual nazis. But hey, you show me that literal open declaration of "I am a Nazi" that you seem to be claiming exists.
But you won't. Because it doesn't. And you're a sad angry loser who's angry he has to defend Putler's actions and live in a shithole.
What you will do is ignore all the points, lick some boots, then post some other inane list of non-related articles that tangentially approach the subject, pretend like they say what you claim when they literally say the opposite, then fuck right off. It's like all the smart trolls in Russia were recruited to the war and are now fertilising Ukrainian soil. Well, guess that's a natural selection of sorts as well. Devolution, if you will.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/217108-ukrainian-soldiers-seen-wearing-gear-displaying-nazi-symbols/
Now tell me how this is my fault. Did I make these soldiers do this? Did I personally force Ukrainian politicians to spend millions from the budget on Nazi monuments?
I’m simply anti-Nazi. The insistence that anyone opposing Nazis is pro-Russia is only coming from you in this conversation. Says a lot about your agenda.
That link doesn't even open, but I'm pretty sure "wearing gear" is different from "open proclamation", is it not? Is your ruski-translator on the fritz?
(edit it does open on mobile, some of my privacy and antiad settings prolly blocked it on pc, garbo us site. So just more shit about azov battallion. Wow. How exactly does one or two insane guys wearing some offensive tats in an insane battallion translate to "Ukraine political leadership openly proclaim they're nazis"?)
I asked for you to show me evidence of these Ukrainian officials PUBLICLY, OPENLY, PROCLAIMING THEY WANT TO ENFORCE NAZI IDEOLOGIES, because that is what you claim.
You're not anti-nazi. You're pro-Russian, you're pro-Putler. He's a dictator, a fascist, a huge cumstain. And you perpetuate his propaganda by claiming that his shitty and failing illegal attack on a sovereign nation is some heroic bullshit he's pulling to "save the world from nazism".
Honestly, like, we can't have a conversation. Your rhetoric is directly from the 70's CCCP playbook and it's just sooooo shite. You don't see it, because you don't have the capacity to recognize proper rhetoric.
So to make clear, even if we assumed your schizophrenic bullshit is true, you say you're not pro-Russian only "anti-nazi" (dogwhistle for people licking Putler's dick and trying to say Ukraine is in the wrong to defend itself) you recognise that Russia broke international law by invading Ukraine so Russia needs to be punished for that and Putler needs to be brought to justice for the crimes against humanity they have committed in Ukraine? You accept and would personally bring Putler's pathetic ass to justice if you could? You are anti-fascist, aren't you?
You went from "Ukraine president openly vows he's a nazi and I have video to prove it!" to "Here's a link that doesn't work that doesn't even remotely talk about what we were talking about, which is someone OPENLY PROCLAIMING something instead of having a symbol that Russia pretends is nazi.
You'd probably think I'm a Nazi as well because of what's on my beret huh? Unfortunately for you, it just means I'm trained to lead people while fighting Russians, not that I'm a Nazi. (im gonna edit to add the photo from mobile)
I believe Elon Musk throwing a Nazi salute is his open declaration that he is a Nazi. I believe Ukrainian politicians erecting monuments of Nazis is an open declaration that they are Nazis. I believe you proudly wearing Nazi symbols on your uniform is an open declaration that you are a Nazi.
Despite what every fascist man-child would like people to believe, it’s actually very, very easy to not look like or associate yourself with Nazism.
Nazi lives don’t matter.
You not understanding history doesn't mean everyone is "openly declaring as a Nazi."
Elon is.
Zelensky is not.
And my symbol means I've graduated from AUK, meaning if you dirtbags try your asinine bullshit further up north, I'll be commanding the squad putting a bullet between your eyes., you pretentious Putler loving fuck.
Nazi lives don't matter, which is why I won't feel bad defending Finland from invading Ruskis.
The reason Musk — the Nazi — is involved in US government currently is because Putler made people like you spread this sort of asinine bullshit and the Americans are so poorly educated it actually worked and Trump won.
How do you know Elon is a Nazi?
You’re comfortable calling him a Nazi for the salute, but not convinced the people erecting monuments of Nazis might also be one themselves?
Like I said, your rhetoric is straight up garbage. It's sort of pitiful to me to that you don't see it. This feels like fighting a 12-year old. It's just not fair.
All you have is your honestly pathetic bullshit about random vague "leadership of Ukraine" openly proclaiming (you might need a refresher course on English) to be Nazis and when pressed for any evidence you have none.
Then when I ask you about anything, you have to pretend you didn't even see it. It's just... so childish. And not in a cute way. In a "6-year old who's still breastfeeding" way.
The point is you're a Russian who supports Putler and you're trying to lie your head off because you can't admit that you guys are the baddies, you broke international laws, you keep doing crimes on humanity and Ukraine is clearly the good guy, although obviously no-one is perfect. But to think that you'd pretend you're arguing that it's wrong that Ukraine defends itself from Russias illegal invasion because... some guys in one battalion have Nazi-tattoos? You do know that Russia is taking rapists, murderers and other scum directly from prison to fight, I'm sure. Yet you won't be able to answer that.
You're quite as pathetic as @[email protected]
You still pretending I'm a Nazi because you don't know Finnish military history? Huh?
Do you think Russia was right in breaking international law and violating Ukraine's sovereignty with their war of aggression? No? You don't think it wrong and you can't even say that, because you're afraid someone from the government might see your social media history and you might "fall out a window"?
I come with sources. You come with name calling, and an iron cross. You think you’re advocating your position well?
Which sources and for what exactly?
You claim "Ukrainian politicians are openly proclaiming to be Nazis and wearing Nazi symbols".
I press you on that. You produce an article of some people in the batshit crazy — and already controversial even in Ukraine — Azov battalion having Nazi tattoos, as if that means jack shit. Russia employs literal rapists, murderers and the criminally insane to fight for it, because it's running out of Orcs. Why does that not mean the Russian leaders are as bad? (Although, they are, but not because of that.)
Then you start going on about Musk.
Then you pretend like I'm a Nazi because you pretend like the Finnish AUK cross is "Nazi insignia". (What are you, 12? :D)
Then you start going on about some random statues for "Nazi heroes" or something. And the "source" you probably have is going to turn out to be some weird niche statue somewhere of a historically controversial figure and not an actual Nazi like Göebbels or something. Meanwhile, just like I said, you keep pathetically avoiding answering whether you're pro-Russian. Because everyone knows you are and you're just crying because you guys are super sore losers and you're losing your pathetic "special military operation" 10-0.
I’ve said I’m not pro-Russia multiple times. The insistence by multiple comments here saying opposing Nazis in Ukraine is pro-Russia, says more about you than the people you’re accusing.
If taken at face value it sounds pretty much the same as the Hamas being a freedom-fighting group
Please expand on that nonsense. How does that make sense in your brain?
Well you say that a Nazi-group stays a Nazi group even when they are fighting against an invader.
Does that work the same way for the Hamas? Once a terrorist group always one? Or are they a liberation army?
Hamas was never a terrorist group. They are fighting an occupying force. By legal definition, they are a resistance group. A radical group, for sure, but the Israeli politicians created Hamas to prevent the secular Palestinian groups from achieving any peace agreements.
But I wouldn’t expect someone defending Nazis to understand that.