Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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But that's not women's fault, that's patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to "provide" and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that "providing" goal is impossible for a lot of us.
A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it's women's expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.
The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.
I think this ignores part of the problem some younger guys have expressed which is their perspective partner still expect the guy to earn more and that's increasingly not the case.
A lot of men have no idea what feminism entails so they aren't aware that it calls not just for the adjustment in expectations and attitudes for men but for women as well. Clarifying what feminism is could fix a bunch of minor issues.
I think at this point it's time to take a step back and say "not all women".
The reaction to "drizzle drizzle" has been particularly telling in this regard: You can scroll through miles of comments of feminists^1^ trying to analyse the thing as "a movement", not really knowing what to make of it, where to put it, you can scroll through just as much mileage of "these men are gay" tiktoks from, well, the kind of women drizzle drizzle is taking the piss out of. And you'll also see reactions from women totally getting it: The ones who can't help but laugh along. Which is the only way to take this seriously.
The enforcement of patriarchy, or consumerism, whatever you want to call it and however you want to slice it, is not a particularly gendered thing. Just because you belong to an identifiable group doesn't mean that your actions or opinions are beneficial to that group. That would presume people to not be idiots which is never a safe assumption to make, present company and myself included.
^1^ "feminist" as in "contains the word feminist in the subreddit name" and suchlike. Not intended to be a deep analysis of the *isms.
I think it's always important to keep in mind that in any population of people there will be regressives.
I mean, sure. In this context in particularly though what I'm disappointed by is the cluelessness of self-identified feminists: As you yourself said in your other comment the "sprinkle sprinkle" sphere isn't exactly feminist, going exactly against the adjustments of expectations feminism wants to make among women, then comes along drizzle drizzle to make fun of sprinkle sprinkle, very much in line with feminist thought (though with male humour and camaraderie) and they just don't get it. Complete woosh.
...or,
<conspiracy_mode=on>, they do get it but play clueless to not have it publicly associated with feminism so that it can be more effective in influencing culture. 1d chess, 4d chess, who can tell the difference.Just to be clear Im not the same poster as the person who mentioned “sprinkle sprinkle”
Nope that was me myself. It's very much "men should pick up the bill or get lost" type stuff though so I connected it with your "expect to earn more" thing.
Now we just need a strong representative to frame this as populist rhetoric and the left will finally be able to stand on two feet
Maybe that's the case because it's been the case since bartering started about 100,000 years ago... You'd rather your daughter marry a guy with a lot of stuff, rather than the guy with little stuff. If you think you can "just" change such an ancient system by introducing Feminism, then oh boy, are we even more fucked than I thought...
The only real issue is that Capitalism in the US has gone hogwild and concentrated most wealth down to 3 people. Europe is somewhat doing fine in that regard. Don't we have superrich people? Yeah, sure, but our bottom line is a LOT healthier. Not as healthy as I wish it to be, but fine-ish for now.
You dont know what feminism is nor what it says about men and capitalism (a lot. Like a fuck ton. Like the entirety of feminist thought is based on male and female liberation and how capitalism enforces patriarchy)
But you havent read any feminist theory. You have a vague idea of what feminism is that you have taken in via osmosis and cultural rhetoric. I can tell you for certain that you do not know what feminism means.
That makes talking about it kinda hard. Not only am I having to explain a complex ideology to you and what it has to say about other complex ideologies but I am having to work through your false consciousness created by those oppressive ideologies. That creates a difference in language that makes talking directly about these topics hard because you think you know what the words I'm saying mean. You have a concept of them in your head. But you are wrong. It's really hard to get past that.