this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
1296 points (98.6% liked)
Microblog Memes
6116 readers
2378 users here now
A place to share screenshots of Microblog posts, whether from Mastodon, tumblr, ~~Twitter~~ X, KBin, Threads or elsewhere.
Created as an evolution of White People Twitter and other tweet-capture subreddits.
Rules:
- Please put at least one word relevant to the post in the post title.
- Be nice.
- No advertising, brand promotion or guerilla marketing.
- Posters are encouraged to link to the toot or tweet etc in the description of posts.
Related communities:
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
We have UBI in my country.
600-1300€ (depending number of children) as of this year. Over that you have to add up another series of subsidies. Most important one probably rent one that halves the cost of renting a house (the government takes care of about 50% of your rent if your income is bellow some threshold)
For reference minimum wage is 1134€
Most common salary is around 1200€
And healthcare is obviously free at the point of service.
But life is not as golden as you may thing. I used to be hardcore defendant of UBI until it became a reality. Now I'm not really into that. I think is faulty and actually bad for society. Many people are starting to have a feeling that breaking their asses 40 hours a week for getting the exactly same level of life quality that someone that does not work at all is just unfair. And tensions are on the rise. And I see a bad ending for it, it's like a ticking bomb. And it's bringing the contrary of peace, is creating confronting groups among our society.
Nowadays I am more defendant of reducing number of workhours. If there's not enough work for everyone then maybe instead of working 40 hours a week people should be working just 20 hours a week, but everyone capable of doing work should be working, so everyone could work less hours and enjoy more life. I think it is more fair than UBI. And more likely to create social harmony.
That doesn't sound like UBI. Someone working and earning a wage would earn that wage on top of the UBI so would not have the same quality of life as someone not working. What you described sounds more like a welfare program.
It's the application of the proposed UBI in any welfare economy out there.
The proposed UBI does not make much sense. On that scenario the instant inflation of giving everyone X extra money would make the UBI irrelevant and unsuitable for a living.
What you are talking were proposed by some groups when IMV was implemented. But it was promptly taken out of consideration as it makes no economical sense whatsoever.
Difference between welfare programs and this UBI is that welfare programs are subject to other considerations. Like only first 5000 applicants get it, or the distribute X amount of millions between the Y people with more points, or they are subject to any other criteria. We have those here too. Difference is that UBI has no other criteria. If you don't have that income that income is given to you. It's how a UBI is applied. Giving 500€ to everyone just to take 500€ out of taxes from most to maintain it and letting inflation make UBI quantity irrisorium would make no sense.
In order to UBI to work the quantity given must be a living wage. And a living wage would always be close the most common wage in a developed country. I don't see how it would be possible por a UBI to be a living wage and then the most common wage being approximately double that, it doesn't seem feasible.
The U in UBI is universal. If not everyone gets it, it's not UBI.
Universal means that ALL people universally have access to that basic income. By their own ways or with help.
Getting radical with the definition makes no sense.
Give everyone 500€, then take everyone who is working 500€ in taxes. Dafuck? No need for the unreasonable and additional paperwork of doing it the long way.
The purpose is ensuring everyone have at minimum 500€ (example) of disposable income. And that is rationally achieve the way I have explained that's being done in all welfare countries that are taking this as an objective.
Still against it, one way or the other. But the other way seems unnecessarily convoluted for no rational reasons.
You are describing GMI and not UBI. Not sure what its confusing about universal
A lot is confusing.
What issue does it solve to give Elon Musk $500?
How it's supposed to be kept a livable wage from that kind of proposed UBI without working salary when UBI+Minimum wage would result in the most common income, making automatically just UBI way below the minimum for a decent living in that society?
How does a more convoluted way of giving money solves any of the issues that arises from just giving money until a threshold?
Why it makes any sense to make it like that anyway?
I call an UBI the law that ensures that there is an Universal Basic Income. So if we set out universal basic income in 500€, no person in this country will have less than 500€ a month, simple as that.
And anyway that has severe issues. So I really think that we should be "giving jobs", by reducing working hours of everyone, instead of money.
You can call it UBI but that's not what anyone else means by UBI, so you're just confusing the debate by calling it that.
Which country?
Spain
What country has UBI?
Spain.
It's known as "Ingreso mínimo vital". It's money given to everyone under X income. Without any other considerations. Everyone who doesn't have that money by themselves is given it by the government.
We also have RSI in Portugal and it works in a similar way. It is not UBI. The U stands for Unconditional. What you describe is just welfare.
Giving everyone, even millionaires, 500€ a month is an unreasonable application of UBI. It makes no sense doing it that way. No sense whatsoever.
Traditional welfare can run off, as it's a program with X amount of money attached to it, UBI is not linked to allocated resources, so it doesn't run off.
This the difference between traditional welfare and UBI is that UBI is given to EVERYone who needs it. As before welfare programs traditionally ran of of money before reaching everyone. There's no need, and it makes no sense to just give everyone money that it's going to instantly vaporize (via taxes or inflation)
I'm not debating the merits of UBI. All I'm saying is UBI is, by definition, unconditional.
Universal Basic Income. No strings attached. Everybody gets it. There is no income threshold.
Yeah, the inflationary pressure would probably be insane and would constantly negate any progress. I'm not an economist so I don't really know.
I think that's a faulty interpretation of what an UBI should be.
Universal Basic Income should mean everyone Human has at minimum that basic wage. By their own means or with help.
Meaning ultimately that there are no humans living under X amount of money.