What I want to become Vs What I do : programmer

[–] [email protected] 119 points 10 months ago (8 children)

Software engineering is just what any "engineering" field would be if they didn't have standards. We have some geniuses and we have some idiots.

Mechanical engineers, civil engineers, electrical engineers, etc. are often forced to adhere to some sort of standard. It means something to say "I'm a civil engineer" (in most developed nations). You are genuinely liable in some instances for your work. You have to adhere to codes and policies and formats.

Software engineering is the wild west right now. No rules. No standards. And in most industries we may never need a standard because software rarely kills.

However, software is becoming increasingly important in our daily lives. There will likely come a day wherein similar standards take precedence and the name "software engineer" is only allowed to those who adhere to those standards and have the proper certs/licenses. I believe Canada already does this.

Software engineers would be responsible for critical software, e.g: ensuring phones connecting to an emergency operator don't fail, building pacemakers, securing medical records, etc. I know some of these tasks already have "experts" behind them. But I don't think software has any licensing/governing.

Directly opposed to "engineering" would be the grunt work which I do.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Software engineering does have standards and methods to developing software. These standards and methods are applied in Defence and Aerospace applications. Software engineering was developed or conceived by NATO to manage the increasing complexity of software development.

The big problem is people often confuse software development or programming with software engineering. Calling anyone that programs a software engineer. This isn't the case. It's entirely possible to be a software engineer without knowing how to code (but impractical).

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

Well that's my point. The term "engineer" is protected in a lot of other industries but not software.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"because software rarely kills" Depends on what you mean by rarely. Therac-25 was extremely dangerous due to a software bug. And this was over 40 years ago.

Industrial robot accidents are a lot more common than needed and almost all are due to software "problems" (bad path planning, bad safety implementation, or just bugs in the control system software)

Yes these things kill less than guns, or cars, or cranes, etc. But they still have affect in a lot of those accidents.

There are very few things anymore that don't have some kind of logic built into them. Be it software or analog logic, it was still "programmed" or designed. If there was something missed in design, that can easily have adverse affects that can lead to accidents and death not immediately attributed to the software.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

I was comparing it to civil or mechanical engineering. I agree that programming/software is growing and "infiltrating" our lives. That's why I think it will become a licensed/certified term in the future. Software engineer will require a cert and some products will require certified engineers. Whereas web apps developers (most likely) will not use that title most of the time and we will just bifurcate those who work on "critical software" and those that do not.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Engineer tends to be a protected term in many countries, so software engineer is no exception. It’s words like “programmer” or “developer” which are probably unregulated

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The weird thing is that engineer is a protected term in Canada but every software dev title I've had so far includes it anyway. It doesn't seem enforced at all here

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I honestly thought there was too, my official job title / offer includes it in the role, despite the role explicitly having no requirement for an engineering degree.

I always found it funny, how I could do a 4 year electrical engineering degree, then work as an electrical engineer for 4 years, but never do my final law/ethics exam so couldn't call myself an electrical engineer, but could just teach myself python and call myself a software engineer, turns out I was wrong.

It is awkward though, especially in a remote work world, given that we compete directly against American "software engineers" for the exact same jobs.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

As a software "engineer" and civil EIT, I endorse this comment.

[–] jadero 4 points 10 months ago

I'd be very interested in learning more about how Canada manages "software engineer." Because whatever is being done certainly doesn't seem to include mandating where regulated professionals must be employed or punishing failures.

Saskatchewan's electronic health records system (eHealth) has had a couple of egregious failures that it shouldn't have taken a "software engineer" to prevent.

Several 911 services became unavailable during an outage that happened to also disrupt point of sale payment systems nationwide.

Both of the relevant companies are telecommunications companies (Telus and Rogers, respectively), where one would expect "software engineering" to be conducted by "software engineers" regardless of regulation.

A quick search for breaches in critical personal information will show that Canada is performing about as well as the US. Which is to say, abysmally.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Software without standards. Am I replying to a person who writes his own OS to run hello world?

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 10 months ago (8 children)

Which are used to calculate stresses for dams, fluid dynamics for planes and ships, capacity and load simulations for power, and to compile and operate servers.

Software engineers are the pinnacle of engineering.

Check out this book on Amazon (or your library) to see just how clever and useful we really are.

https://www.amazon.com/Software-Engineering-Foundation-of-Modern-Society/dp/B07X66DCLM

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago

Son of a gun

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

We are useful?? Thanks You Man I hope my parents also understand that Software Engineering is also a real Engineering

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Software engineering doesn't treat failure anywhere near important enough for me to consider it proper engineering. Bugs are expected, excused and waived, which for anything critical just isn't acceptable in my opinion.

Is software still useful? ... Sure.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This person really went and promoted Amazon. Thank you for supporting your family business

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

(click the link)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Meh. There's a saying in my field: "anyone can build a bridge, only an engineer can make one that barely doesn't fall down".

Humorously reductive as it is, software is what makes that "barely" thinner than human calculation would normally yield. So... Yeah. Not what I'd call a pinnacle.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Engineers now: We built an airport, 9 years behind schedule and at 233% the cost.

We are rebuilding a train station at (currently) 366% the planned cost and an estimated delivery time of 200% the original estimate, into rock that might swell when in contact with water and heave the station out of the ground, in order to decrease the station’s capacity by 17%

[–] [email protected] 46 points 10 months ago

This is not the engineers fault though.

It is highly political projects, politicians offloaded their old friends and competitiors onto the boeards and other functions and in the case of the airport major planning was undertaken by a guy who is a technical drawer and not an engineer.

Most of these fuck ups could have been prevent, if the project management was done by project managers with an engineering background and if the owners side would have been represented by peoplewith a technical backgrounds.

Source: i have worked in civil engineering for public projects. We wasted 50% of the time explaining Politicians and MBA bros C-levels why they can't start by building the roof and why replanning half the stuff is a bad idea, when we are already on the market with bids for contractors.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Engineers aren't in charge of graft.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

estimates are just that, a guess

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

For healthy working relationships and solid infrastructure you under-promise and over-deliver.

For maximal profit and sustainable business models you over-promise and under-deliver.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The company that under-promises won't win the bid, though. Unfortunately the norm now is to overpromise, and then squeeze as many extra fees and concessions out of the project as possible.

There's also a culture of contractors vs engineers where limits willingness to work together to find solutions. "not my fault".

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I can't even build python scripts.....

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You can lie on Internet.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

I can't even lie on the internet. I'm worthless.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

My python scripts won't compile... I'm using GCC it keeps giving me errors :(

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

My ChatGPT just told me give up and run Windows or get an iphone.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

None of these engineers built a dam, ship, or plane. They did some math and drew some lines, and some other people built the stuff.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In this context it's heavily implied "built" is used as "engineered/designed", in the same way I "build" a shitty engine for an app

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

Programmers mostly aren't really engineers and that's ok. I don't want to be an engineer.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (8 children)

Do you... do you think we don't have Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, or Computer Engineers anymore?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think they're outnumbered by desk jockeys without a math degree.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I mean these days the average EE is a software engineer who is good at math and bad at software.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

I believe that if an Electrical Engineer has qualification as a programmer then the two fields become the higher discipline "Computer Engineer." At least most universities arrange their classifications as such.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Right? I do both electrical and mechanical in my daily, besides some meh quality C code haha.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

You wanna hear a joke? American infrastructure jobs.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Hey, that's not fair! Sometimes I write 3 lines.

[–] dmalteseknight 3 points 10 months ago

Comments don't count

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

You mean “I ask ChatGPT how to write two line Python scripts”?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

some countries actually define what an engineer is much like doctors.

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