this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
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[–] [email protected] 214 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

The Crew’s servers, scheduled for Sunday March 31, represents a “gray area” in videogame consumer law that he would like to challenge.
..
I think the argument to make is that The Crew was sold under a perpetual license, not a subscription, so we were being sold a good, not a service
..
the seller rendered the game unusable and deprived it of all value after the point of sale.

Goddam right, that's not a grey area IMO, that shit ought to be illegal. Maybe there should be a term, like let's say 90 years maybe?

[–] [email protected] 117 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

My personal favorite is the "companies are obligated to support it forever, or open source the server software hosted by a third party, hosting paid for up front for at least a year."

They get to keep my money forever don't they?

[–] Lodra 48 points 10 months ago (6 children)

While I love the spirit of this idea, it gets complicated fast. Worlds adrift is a great example. The game’s server was created using some closed source libraries with a paid license. So when the owning company (Bossa Studios?) went under, they were unable to open source it.

A law like this would effectively kill all licensed software that isn’t a full product. I do agree though; we need a solution

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

When the initially licensed the library, they should’ve included distributed binary copies. That may have allowed them to release the source for their game alongside the binary of the library.

[–] Lodra 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

An interesting idea but it’s not possible with all languages. E.g. golang. But probably not the case with worlds adrift. I’m guessing it’s more of an incentive problem for the other company. No more revenue = why bother?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

I think it’s like when a tv show doesn’t bother to negotiate the music rights for syndication and then they can’t air it anymore if the audio can’t be removed.

“What happens in 10 years?” Isn’t always a priority. Also, I’m sure that makes the price go up.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Also, you could use CGo, but if you know golang, then you know why that’s not always a viable option.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

A law like this would effectively kill all licensed software that isn’t a full product

What I'm hearing is: this law needs to be a constitutional amendment.

[–] Lodra 12 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Hmm I may be confused. Do you believe that software companies shouldn’t be allowed to build and sell libraries? I.e. They should only be allowed to sell full products, ready for an end user?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Not the person you're responding to but I definitely think that Library should be able to be made, however I don't believe that they should be able to prevent a project from going open source in the case of company using the library going under, or if they wanted to keep it closed Source they should have to do something similar to what class action lawsuits do where anyone that is affected by it and opts into the agreement get some sort of compensation. Because it really is like a rug pull you buy a product and then the company makes the product unusable

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

IIRC Bossa tried to open source it but they used a license for Spatial OS, which provided the backbone of their game. They were unable to make a stable game without it and opted to not open source it. But they were also in an early access that would probably provide an exception for a game closing down.

Bossa did leave the island creator active and has spun up Lost Skies on the same engine, which wouldn't be possible if they open sourced WA.

Ultimately the issue should be GaaS and MMOs are offerings service while other games are goods which have an artificial expiry date. This is a good test of software judication.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago

I'd tie its length to copyright length. Maybe they would fight Disney when they try to raise it again.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I just expect a popup in the game which says something like "Could not connect to server, some multiplayer features will be unavailable. Continue offline?"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Or the ability to host community servers like the olden days when a game is sunsetted.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Or, maybe don’t force online requirement, and allow p2p. Or, better yet, open source the server now that it’s shut down and release a patch to specify where to connect.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Blacklight Retribution did this for their console version. Wish they woulda did it for the PC version but whatever.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Imagine buying a T-shirt, and the manufacturer, without your prior knowledge or consent, could somehow render your shirt unwearable -- that's effectively what's happening here. The only "gray area" might be that ultimately you don't own a copy of the game anyway (since digital copies are effectively leased -- a whole other issue unto itself), but regardless: more power to this lawsuit. Seriously shady shit getting tacitly accepted lately.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

"we lost our license to print this brands logo on our shirts, so you have to give it back now"

Smh

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I got the game for free, and I've been playing it since every three months for a few days, just driving around. I bought the sequel, but it sucked.

I never used the multiplayer component, I treated it like a single player game. And now it's going to vanish? This whole world? They can't be serious. This isn't a multiplayer only title, it's single player with an optional mp stacked upon it. At least put an offline patch out... Assholes!

But that's the crux with only buying licenses. Or games with always online requirements. I hope fans find a way to crack the online code!!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

Yeah, no one is arguing games shouldn't have online, just that they continue to work after the devs are done with them, have an End of Life plan like the late Avengers game, or the gacha Megaman X Dive that got an offline version sold on steam and consoles.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I'm all for improving consumer rights in the videogame industry, but I'm more than a little amazed anyone's willing to put up a fight for The Crew of all things.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 10 months ago

He's rather critical of the game. He just really hates when games are lost forever.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 10 months ago

Seems more to do with the way things line up--it's a perfect example of a physical and digital game getting permanently shut down without any sort of refund or compensation to the buyers of the game. It sounds like it's about setting precedent so people will have a better idea of how this kinda stuff is going to work in the future.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

He just likes driving around and nothing more, it's his podcast/tourism game, but also the perfect one since it happened after he started this fight for preservation and it's not sold as service but as a product, unlike MMOs.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 10 months ago

Don't forget we have to get comfortable not owning our games guys... This is Ubisoft showing us how that works..

[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This would be a huge precedent for video-game preservation. IANAL but this would mean one of these two:

  • service cannot be shut down without release of server source code
  • whole game need to be reclassified as software service

Seems like the latter would be an easy loophole tbh.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Also NAL, but it seems like they aren't arguing for server functionality but rather just the ability to play offline at all, which opens up the third option of requiring games to be patched to remove sever requirements if being shut down, in any case this will be a fascinating case to follow, and I hope they go through with the lawsuit.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (14 children)

Now also make it illegal to sell physical copies of games that need day 0 patches/downloads to make them work.

I still kick on my original nes every now and then. 20 years from now when you dig out your old copy of borderlands 3 and there's no longer a download available, you think you'll get to play through the game?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

This is why his videos about this issue are great, he dismantles every single argument against it like "just buy physical", The Crew has physical versions, they won't work just like the digital one.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago

Fuck yeah Ross

[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago

Stuff like this is always welcome.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago

That aldo happened to Bomberman. To play locally, it needs to connect to a server. The servers are no longer active, and as a result, the game isn't playable.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (3 children)

This is all well and good, but what of all those MMORPGs that got shut down?

The Crew is a bizarre game to do this kinda treatment for, since the sequel is very similar to the first, less terrible crime syndicate story, more planes and other nonsense. It's also pretty middling, car handling is really weird, and the lack of rear view mirrors looks pretty weird nowadays.

I'm guessing it's car licensing that's causing the shutdown. It's what happened to Forza Horizon 1 and 2. If that is the case, this game isn't going to get open sourced ever. Also: why didn't this guy go after Microsoft to make them playable again?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (4 children)

It's because MMOs were sold as subscriptions (most of the time) so they're legally covered in being allowed to end their service. The crew however was sold as a full game with no subscription. They didn't make it clear that the game could cease to exist even though you paid for it outright.

Sadly, I feel like a lawsuit line this won't have the benefit we're all hoping for (open sourcing on closure of services) but will instead just make all subsequent games free-to-play, which would make them more exempt to the same scrutiny. And we're already seemingly heading that way too, warts and all.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

For the future maybe. For games that were sold one day, they would have to either keep supporting it, or release server software.

It is up to the gamers to keep supporting this practice in the future.

I can still play Unreal Tournament '99 and 2004 even though the servers are offline. I can even still play it online with the server ip and even use the server browser with fan mods.

You can't say the same for the crew when it goes offline.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The reason you can still play UT99 and 2004 is because those games were never hosted by epic on a central server. The game shipped with the server hosting tools, and it was designed to allow you to host your own server (if your connection was fast enough) or to rent your own server from a third party.

They're also very different types of games from the current crop of live service games that this youtuber is targeting.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

I am aware it's different. All I'm trying to say is either make it single player, release dedicated server software or keep supporting it. You sold it as a product. Don't remove access to a product.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Horizon can be played offline. When Microsoft bites the dust, I can still pop in a Forza horizon 2 DVD into my 360 and play it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

Realistically, when Microsoft bites the dust, both your FH2 DVD and your 360 will have stopped working decades ago.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

You just made it look even worse for Ubisoft since the first 3 Horizon games work offline and everyone that bought them can still play it just fine, you just can't buy them right now.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Not sure why he's being recognized by a Half-Life series of his. I discovered and watched him for his deep dives of old crappy PC games.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago
[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

Blessed Ross Scott

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