this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
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[โ€“] [email protected] 61 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Freedom of speech or freedom of expression isn't freedom from consequences. Words matter, and they have consequences, and people should consider the consequences of their speech in public.

[โ€“] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Agreed. Fuck off with this "we have no free speech" bullshit, substack (and it's freedom of conscience in Canada in the first place, not free speech). All of the things listed are social consequences, not criminal prosecution or some other government persecution. Sarah was booted by her party, not the government, and the rest are employers and universities. If there is fault, it lies with those organizations.

It's also not protected speech, so if there is fault, those organizations will have to suffer social consequences themselves, as it doesn't seem that they broke any laws.

[โ€“] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The censured her:

The Doug Ford government has put forward a motion that would censure an Ontario NDP MPP over her comments on the Israel-Gaza war and ask they not be recognized in the legislature until a formal apology is made and a statement on social media is deleted.

The motion calls comments made by Hamilton Centre MPP Sarah Jama last week โ€œantisemiticโ€ and โ€œdiscriminatory.โ€ If passed, it would call on the Speaker not to recognize Jama in the House โ€œuntil the Member retracts and deletes her statement on social media and makes an apology in her place in the House.โ€

So they're trying to completely take away her ability to govern because of her speech. So yes, the government is trying to silence her.

[โ€“] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And like several things Douggie has put through, it will ultimately be deemed illegal. That bill is a clear violation of charter rights.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I'm not familiar with how censure works in the Ontario Provincial Parliament legal framework. Do you have any examples of precedent where a censure motion has been struck down in court? Because my understanding is that the majority was within their legal powers to do this.

[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

You mean the government that was handed a 66% majority by 17% of eligible voters?

You get the government you deserve when you don't fucking show up to vote.

[โ€“] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There's a bit of a blurred line when they're members of government or government organizations versus private employers.

A political party IS part of government, even if it's not the political party leading the country. However, a party shouldn't be forced to keep somebody who goes off the rails and is causing them damage. At the same time, those same parties seem to be very pick-and-choose about which "rebellious" members they decide to expel and over what issues

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Also, one of the examples cited was York University, and universities are provincially regulated and funded.

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[โ€“] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Indeed. And if the NDP won't allow its members to recognize that Israel is an apartheid state, then members who see it as such should abandon the party. Both those serving as public representatives, and regular members and donors.

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[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Don't be dense, read the article. The story is not about legality or free speech absolutism. It is about how the window of acceptable political speech in what is considered mainstream has narrowed to a stifling degree to exclude very reasonable milquetoast peacenik sentiments.

[โ€“] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

the story is not about legality

Then it shouldn't use the words "free speech" in the headline. Free speech is very much a legal term.

[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So is theft and murder and inheritance. We use legal terms in regular parlance all the time.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Ok, and? Regular parlance can be about legal implications too, I've never heard the words "free speech" used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?

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[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

i cant believe how popular this view is on social media.

[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not a view. It's written into our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and empowered by our constitution.

[โ€“] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

freedom of speech is not an exclusively legal term

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Both the article in the OP, and the comment you're responding to are using it in the legal sense.

[โ€“] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

unless i am failing to understand what is being said the article is saying otherwise.

For them, free speech is freedom for them to collect a paycheque while saying the most boring, obvious, clichรฉ, bootlicking shit they can come up with. That is free speech โ€” the right to do these things with minimal government involvement.

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[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

It's complicated. Legally we don't have "freedom of speech".

For clarification: Do I believe that's a core human value? Absolutely.

Do I believe that tolerance is a social contact we should all abide by? Very much so!

Do I trust society to regulate itself? Heck no, from a sociological point of view that's a mess for lots of reasons. In smaller communities it may be ideal, but anything anyone says now is considered on a global scale.

So, from where I stand, it makes sense for a governing body to place limited restrictions on what a person should be allowed to say in the public sphere. This specific issue is debatable and relies on a certain amount of faith in the institution. Is it right that these people were punished for saying their beliefs? That's another complicated view that depends on a case by case basis. Is it legally allowable that a politician be censured for what they say? That depends on what they said. Is it morally allowable? From a moral absolutionist point of view, probably not, but our charters were made to prevent people from calling for violence in the public sphere. Is it morally acceptable to allow for someone to call for violence in a very real way as a political representative? What constitutes violence? How far can we deconstruct the rhetorical arguments our society is based on?

It's complicated. We don't have freedom of speech and we don't have freedom from consequences. If you give people you agree with freedom from consequences you also have to give it to the people you don't agree with.

[โ€“] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (5 children)

We don't. This isn't the U.S. with their freedom of speech, where you can say literally anything. We have something called freedom of expression, which does not cover hate speech, and a few other things.

[โ€“] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The article is not about free speech absolutism. It is about journalism. Hate speech has nothing to do with it.

[โ€“] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Perhaps the headline should have reflected the actual topic more accurately.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Or maybe people should've read the article instead of commenting based on the title

[โ€“] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A) Welcome to the internet.

B) I don't actually think it's unreasonable to think that a headline should clearly indicate the subject of the article - why have headlines otherwise?

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[โ€“] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (7 children)

well you should use your freedom of expression to express your concern for israel's actions on mainstream tv channels

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[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The US doesn't have freedom of speech either... Source: American.

[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I mean, you do have it codified in your Constitution as its very first amendment. Now, how much is it really protected, in practice...

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[โ€“] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Iโ€™m pretty sure only Cons try to say we have free speech because they donโ€™t know our laws

Of note though; freedom of speech means freedom from persecution not freedom from consequence

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[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, we have freedom of expression, not freedom of speech and it's not unlimited contrary to the USA.

[โ€“] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not unlimited in the US, either, despite what the fascists think.

[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ya, "Free Speech" as written in the constitution only covers congressional laws.

[โ€“] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Even in the context of the US First Amendment, which makes it so that the government cannot abridge your right to free speech, it's not unlimited. Think "Yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater, when there's no fire," or libel/slander, or terroristic threats, or, I dunno, witness tampering.

There's lots of speech which must yield to other rights and protections.

[โ€“] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I agree with many points from the article but I don't think the title choice was good

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