this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2023
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This is a universe with faster than light travel and near infinite resources. There's a homeless shelter in one of the major cities. I helped them out. Why the fuck is there a homeless shelter in a universe with FTL and near infinite resources?

I'm starting to think Fallout under Bethesda isn't a satire and their writers are just incapable of imagining anything beyond capitalism.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

incapable of imagining anything beyond capitalism

you just described about 98% of Americans. And probably Europeans. I won't speak for the rest of the world but it's probably still not great.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's my most sci-fi is uninteresting to me. The authors often just come up with some Times Square looking moon cities with billboards in space.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Some can manage to be Philip K. Dick and then most end up Orwell.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

That's why you gotta get on the star trek train and enjoy fully-automated luxury gay space communism

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

outer worlds was a pretty poor satire of capitalism. starfield doesn't even notice the capitalism swirling around it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Capitalist realism is a plague that has spread all over contemporary western fiction. It's hard to even imagine settings without it for most people.

Even fantasy fiction is loaded with it. One of the first worldbuilding details most D&D style generic fantasy worlds bring up is "where are the trade lanes and who are the rich assholes profiting from them" yea

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Its ruining fiction. Why do people want to "escape" in a story to just another capitalist hellhole. Its fucking space futurism! How has the economic conditions not changed in any way?! How have they made this massive effort to develop industries capable of this level of colonization, terraforming, and fucking countless FTL ships when divided up in such a primitive economy like CAPITALISM!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Why the fuck is there a homeless shelter in a universe with FTL and near infinite resources?

The thing that really stuck out to me about (the intro to) the Conquest Of Bread was that Kropotkin is just completely enamored with the technology of his day. He thought that there was easily enough to provide for everyone using the miracles of modern technology. In 1892.

So yeah, I think the scarcity will continue until capitalism goes away, and post-scarcity technology doesn't mean the end of capitalism unless people successfully do something about it.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

The setting is bleak and dystopian as hell, and doesn't do nearly enough to justify itself nor does it treat anything with the gravity that it deserves. The UC is a fascist dictatorship ruled by a technocratic military industrial complex, with liberal tolerance and socdem welfare and this is just uncritically presented in a neutral or even positive light, while the FC is just straight up a federation of corporate dictatorships with settler colonialist characteristics and it's just all smiles and folksy self-reliance with a few asides about "those darn corrupt business dictators sure are self-serving huh" that don't really have any consequences.

And the thing is I'm not even convinced that the writers themselves couldn't have done better, because there is at least some awareness that the setting they're writing is a bad place, but in typical Bethesda fashion all the edges are filed off and the evil despots become nice and tolerant and nothing too bad ever happens because of their misrule. Better writers with better oversight could have definitely done it better, certainly.

Like the two major factions each need to either be changed for the better or changed for the worse: the UC needs to either be as awful as its system would actually require or it needs to lose the fascism and instead be a socialist state grappling with the material reality that corporate power structures (I'm thinking like Soviet "second economy" shit where it's organized crime outfits and the like doing their own capitalist bullshit outside the state) managed to seize a lot of resources for themselves out in the colonies, leaving it on the brink of a civil war between the party and the colonial powers. Likewise the FC needs to either be genuinely liberationist, representing rebellion against colonial corporations and resistance against the fascist UC, or the consequences of their vile ancap dictatorships and corporate feudalism need to be front and center. As it is they're both awful and whitewashed to all hell while representing functionally identical fascist ideologies to such an extent that their conflict with one another doesn't even make sense.

Further, the settled systems need to be enclosed more, with large swathes of owned and occupied territory where you can't just land a space ship and set up a private mine using a cooler full of rocks to create industrial capital and a living space in seconds.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A major limiting factor that hurts the writing is that the game will ultimately still be designed to be complete accessible, so just like Skyrim had lots of racism in its dialogue and worldbuilding but nearly zero in practice for the player, so too does Starfield have subjects that appear in the writing but which the game designers are obliged to completely avoid.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That was laughably present in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. It didn't just whitewash racism and make the new racism discrimination against the poor smol bean augmented people (yes Human Revolution showed people coerced into rented-out augmentation but didn't explore it much) but that discrimination wasn't even delivered to the player in any meaningful way.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I watched hbomb's excessively-long video essay on that game and that's probably the most memorable part, especially the coercion aspect getting mentioned and then glossed over.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ross Scott of Accursed Farms did an impressive takedown but it focused on the ever-diluted political discourse in Deus Ex sequels, from the deep complex richness in the first game to, as he put it, CYBORGS CYBORGS CYBORGS in the later games.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

functionally identical fascist ideologies to such an extent that their conflict with one another doesn't even make sense

Just remembered about the war going on between Russia and Ukraine

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I ran into a straight-up reddit libertarian in a bar on Mars. I think the organization he was pushing was called LIST? I started slamming the Tab key very soon into the conversation

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Meanwhile in Deus Ex you can meet black Australian dengist bar owners in Hong Kong.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

JC got his ass handed to him in that conversation, but the game kept winning.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I mostly agree with your take, though I dont see why they should spend any time justifying how the society got how things got the way they are. Real life is usually a mixed bag of good and bad. And I'm here for the space game, not a societal critique.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

🚀🐿️

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The genre is "immersive sim", though a very corporate "mass appeal" dumb-down of the genre. You cannot escape politics in a game about factions of humans navigating problems of scarcity, ownership, social disputes, etc., whether it is "IN SPACE" or not. What the hell do you think the stories would even be otherwise?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

though I dont see why they should spend any time justifying how the society got how things got the way they are

Because that's the foundation of good world building, otherwise the setting comes out as flat, boring, inconsistent and completely arbitrary

It fleshes out and cements the stakes of the story, provides scale and the chance for the characters to be grounded in anything other than archetypal traits, that's why in the most celebrated sci fi, the setting itself defines the story as much if not more than the characters

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The issue is the incongruity and how it's fundamentally irresponsible to write inherently bad things in an uncritical or positive way. It's fine to have morally grey things, but they should be consistent: the problems need to be shown, the consequences need to be shown.

For example with the UC one can't just be like "so yeah it's a military dictatorship that renders anyone who hasn't done a term of service in the government as stateless, but uh they do social welfare and they're super tolerant and nice and stuff" because that doesn't make sense: it's incongruous that a state oriented around brutal militarism and its war machine that demands people actively participate in its machine to attain basic rights is then going to be this paragon of religious and cultural tolerance with a social safety net for all its stateless residents; it needs brutality and rage and sadism or it would not be designed the way it is, it would not have the rulers it does, it would not allow the social problems that it has.

That's why I describe it as it either needs to be better or worse: it needs ideological compassion and a drive to improve things for the people even if it is materially unable to do so and it needs to lose the fascism to do this, or its villainy needs to be played straight and its tone should reflect its elitist and militarist nature with the consequences of what such a system wants and needs put front and center.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Damn, this is good media criticism.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah damn I'm glad I posted this thread cause some of these posters have very interesting things to say.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

some of my favourite threads to lurk in on the subreddit were the ones relating to vidya and their worldbuilding looked at through a marxist lense. it gives me easy examples to understand the theory and it's just fun to see clever people talking about dumb shit comfy

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Good lord how can someone write fascist apologia that stupid.

Like, c'mon for fuck sakes

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

so yeah it's a military dictatorship that renders anyone who hasn't done a term of service in the government as stateless

Unexamined Starship Troopers brain has infested generations of consumers and those consumers are now writing stories. lenin-rage

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Fuck it literally is

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

LMAO, if you don't want "politics" go choose a "rogue-like", not an RPG

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tbf the biggest rpguelike is traditionally Binding of Isaac

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Ok, I meant "no talk, only pew pew"

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it even the same writers as Fallout 3 though?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

~~probably not~~

turns out yeah

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Same lead writer, Emil Pagliarulo, a hack of a writer who somehow has been the head of every Bethesda project since Oblivion.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Hey, the dark brotherhood questline in Oblivion was good (and that writer probably had nothing to do with it because he was too busy writing the doodoo-ass main plot).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

He sucks so much. He must have compromat on Todd or something.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fun fact:

He voices a character in Fallout 4. Specifically, he voices a character who, regardless of your interaction with him, calls you the R-slur yea

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

This fact was not so fun but thank you

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