Fuck him, not for trying to get the game out there, but for trying to make a profit off it.
this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
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Good. However way you feel about piracy or Bethesda. This is stealing directly from artists and we need to protect artists and their right to make money. Which in turn is their right to live, because we live in a capitalistic society. Denying someone pay is denying them shelter, food, heat, everything. I can only hope that subsequent cases like this for smaller artists are treated similarly as important. I know that's a tall ask though. That the indie games studio losing money to bootleggers isn't going to get the same response from the Sheriff's Office.
This is at least a step in the right direction as cases like this are usually hand waved away as "well those people weren't going to buy the game anyways." or "It's just copying a file." or best of all "No real damages have been done."
While what you say is absolutely correct, keep in mind that the profits a game makes go to the company. The workers are already paid. If a game doesn't make money it would likely mean those people at the bottom would lose their jobs but the people at the top will absolutely get their share. But stealing a game like this doesn't mean people aren't getting paid. If Bethesda feels like the game doesn't need all of the staff it took to make it, they'll still get rid of them, regardless of how popular the game may be doing at any given time.
Indie game studios stand a better chance at doing right by their employees but a capitalist society means the profits go to the top and the losses go to the bottom and rarely are indie studios exempt from this rule of economics.
This person is being punished because they found a weakness in Bethesda's setup and exploited it. It MIGHT be that if they had gone to Bethesda and let them know of this vulnerability rather than trying to sell what they had found that they would be been rewarded. But, more often than not, the companies who are shown a vulnerability still seek to punish those who point it out to them.
The workers are already paid.
Except for bonuses, profit sharing, and things that rely on the profits of the company.
If a game doesn’t make money it would likely mean those people at the bottom would lose their jobs but the people at the top will absolutely get their share.
Which certainly equates to someone stealing as someone endangering or even costing the jobs of artists.
If Bethesda feels like the game doesn’t need all of the staff it took to make it, they’ll still get rid of them, regardless of how popular the game may be doing at any given time.
Sure, just like any company. This is true for any business. It's hard to keep people employed that you don't need. I don't see how this relates to artists getting paid.
Indie game studios stand a better chance at doing right by their employees but a capitalist society means the profits go to the top and the losses go to the bottom and rarely are indie studios exempt from this rule of economics.
Highly depends on the studio. I've seen the heads of indie studios get less profits than the rest of the team. That said a lot of indie studios are also more partnerships so there aren't really "ones at the top". Of course, again, it depends on the studio, but it's good to remember there are lots of exceptions to this rule out there.
This person is being punished because they found a weakness in Bethesda’s setup and exploited it.
Yes, good. If I found a weakness in whatever you do and was able to profit off of your work instead of you, you'd find that wrong, right? It's like glorifying this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2R5xV3bbY
Except for bonuses, profit sharing
This reads like equating tipping to salary.
Dude, whatever, that's still money being taken away from the artists. That's a weak ass argument that it's "just extra money." I'm going to bet the answer to my question is you would find it wrong if people stole from you.
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This is stealing directly from artists
This is factually untrue. Artists have already been paid for their work and have possibly already been let go. (in many big gaming companies majority of the dev teams are let go on release, they operate on a hire-and-fire cycle) Artists pretty much never have a stake in the company or profit sharing. So there's no real way the # of copies sold has any bearing on their income.
At worst this is Bethesda having 150 copies stolen. Not even tiny devs would blink at that as they get copies stolen through places like G2A constantly. A huge company like Bethesda is worried more about early copies breaking embargo date that shows bad or buggy gameplay, negatively harming sales. Which, TBH, I am 100% not sympathetic towards. Review embargos any more restrictive than a week prior to launch is just trying to hide something.
in many big gaming companies majority of the dev teams are let go on release, they operate on a hire-and-fire cycle
This is absolutely no longer the case. I've worked in the industry for 10 years and have never seen a team release then get laid off. Imagine any other business working this way. It just doesn't make sense. In some cases though, smaller studios miscalculate how long between publisher funding and release income. You get money from a publisher to make a game, then you release and for a while, a lot of studios made the mistake that the release income would come immediately. Publishers have clauses in their contracts to recoup all the money they gave the studio with the release money. So the studios assume they'll make money the first month of release and realistically depending on the publishing contract, that's not the case all of the time. So they are forced to lay off people. In larger studios though, this is never the case.
To put it in business terms, imagine your restaurant staff just served one of the best dishes they could to a well-known reviewer and got rated well. Do you think that business is going to lay off their kitchen staff or do you think they'll try to keep the team together and make another dish? It doesn't make sense for them to lay off people and never has. It doesn't happen if the studio can avoid it. Even when games completely tank, I've only seen people quit because of studio frustrations, not laid off.
This is factually untrue. Artists have already been paid for their work and have possibly already been let go.
A lot of studios still give profit sharing and bonuses to those who worked on high-profile projects. Also no, again, they don't just get let go. They at most get moved to other projects. That's why there are people at Bethesda/Epic/Ubisoft/etc who have worked there for decades.
At worst this is Bethesda having 150 copies stolen. Not even tiny devs would blink at that as they get copies stolen through places like G2A constantly.
Hi, I am a tiny dev and I constantly fight against G2A and other shitty websites that steal from me. I am not alone and multiple studios have straight up come out against G2A. I am one who will say instead of buying something off of G2A, just email me for a Steam key. I'd rather give away my product than see G2A profit from it. Larger developers clearly care as they have pressed charges against people who pirate. Saying no developer cares is ignoring the entire discourse of developers on the subject.
As a developer myself, I just find it funny as fuck that people just spout off about shit like this. clearly do not understand what they are talking about.
Imagine the support nightmare alone if the dev team is dismissed on release. For example, Baldur’s gate just released 1000+ bugfix patch 20-some days after release, good luck doing that with a brand new team.
Especially today with things like day1/week1 patches which have become the usual almost, cutting the dev team loose on release would just be wild from any informed perspective
What’s your source on this? Even if Bethesda had any idle hands during the development of Starfield, it already has another huge project coming down the pike in Elder Scrolls 6. Why would it fire off developers who are already familiar with the revised engine that it needs to make another massive open world game?
I've worked in the games industry for 10 years, this has been a rumor about release layoffs. It doesn't happen if the studio can prevent it. You typically don't lay off a huge team if you can avoid it, even if the game did terribly. A terrible game is a learning opportunity and if you just lay everyone off then everything they learned during that game is lost knowledge. You'll never make a profitable studio filled with experts in their craft if you lay people off after every release. Even small studios have another project going so when they near release they don't have idle hands.
So, this rumor comes from a couple of places. 1) At the release of a project a lot of people will quit. This is usually because they are fed up with the studio or the studio's next project doesn't interest them. 2) Smaller studios during the indie boom assumed that they'd get paid on release. This has changed but before, the release was an unpaid publisher milestone. Some indie studios assumed this to mean they'd get profits on release which also isn't the case because the publisher typically takes 80% to 100% (usually 100% if you are small) of the profits until they recoup all the money they spent during development. So the studio goes unpaid for 1-6 months or longer. They then are forced to lay off their team because they can't pay them even if the game does well. There are delays in payments from Storefronts, Publishers, etc. when it comes to these things, and when smaller studios forget that, they lose people. So sometimes now, people write into the publisher contract that release is a paid milestone or they go for DLC milestones or they start another project nearing release and hope to get it funded and move the team over.
Overall, no large studio lays off a whole team on the verge of release if they can avoid it. It doesn't make sense and it's a myth.
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bad, what could possibly justify someone being arrested over something like this? and the only one who could "deny pay" is the bosses anyway, game devs don't get any sort of cut from profits.
He stole physical games and sold them. That's a crime in any country on Earth I believe.
Deeply frustrating to see. Their only sin in my book is selling it instead of freely distributing it, something Bethesda is equally guilty of. I only hope they make it out of this okay.
Bethesda is guilty of not giving away their game for free? I really hope I’m misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
Yes.
Disappointing to see baiting from a mod.
This is not bait, I truly believe that all non-private art and information should be freely available to all for any purpose and liberating it is always a good thing. I'll leave your report unresolved for another mod to weigh in on, but I'm not looking for an argument and gave a minimal response precisely because I did not want to encourage shit-flinging.
I think your opinion is disrespectful towards artists. It implies that they don't deserve to be compensated for their work and consequently that their profession is less worthy. Why art specifically? What sets their product apart from other goods?
Why art specifically?
I assume because the topic is video games. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are against the whole current system and would prefer a gift based economy. I don't think they are defending a capitalist system where artists don't get paid.
I see, thank you!
I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree with you but thanks for being polite about it. Sorry for calling your comment baiting but when I saw something like that that just didn't expand on anything I figured it would be. Most troll comments are like that. Say something controversial without expanding on it to encourage arguments.
In fact id consider that kind of comment to encourage far more shit-flinging than something thought out like this.
Ahaha yes I think it’s kinda suspect too. Imagine spending millions & millions on a quality title just to give it away for free?
Why would they even do that? Could they even do it? (I believe) It does not work like that :)
Seriously, I can’t imagine a world where you invest millions in a project just to give it for free. I don’t see how someone could think it’s frustrating.
For once, if you like a game and want to support the industry, buy it. Vote with your wallet.
You realize these studios operate in capitalist societies right?
What kind of a mod argues with people in their own community? 🤔
They're a user too, and they're arguing respectfully. What's the problem?
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I don't see it as arguing. They're just clarifying their position. And fwiw, we are all users here too. We don't have the ability to not show the 'M' by our name
That would be a nice feature. I don't always want to comment or post with my mod hat on. That said, I'm not seeing it on anyone here. Is it an instance-based thing?
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Fr you're a mod, you're not allowed to be a human with feelings and ideas and opinions! Just blindly care about the community, don't contribute to the discourse!!
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The developers don’t deserve to be paid? Because that’s the crux of it, no sell no profit, no profit no workers. Bye bye studio and any future art because we all are trapped in this capitalist nightmare. Do their families not deserve to be supported for their work?
I’m struggling to understand the motivation of your comment. You seem upset that a studio that worked for many years paying many developers project managers artists etc to create this game is selling the result of their hard work and investments? Where do you think they got the funds to build their latest game? Perhaps from the previous games, content, merch they have produced and sold?
How exactly is a studio to function if they simply hand out their hard work for free? How exactly are they to hire quality people if they are unable to make a profit from their primary product, the games that the developers and artists pour their heart and souls into?
I mean, shit, yeah all information, art, everything should be able to exist without tying it to finance but that’s not the world we live in and it’s not the world these developers work in.
So… what’s your point??
Bye bye studio and any future art because we all are trapped in this capitalist nightmare. Do their families not deserve to be supported for their work?
I think it's safe to assume they are not fans of capitalism; I doubt they want to keep living in a capitalist system where artists and developers are not paid. They are talking about artists and developers because that's what the topic is about, but I would assume this thought stretches to all of society.
You're right, of course. I detest capitalism and while I obviously understand why people and the institutions they build operate under its rules, I see not doing so as a generally good thing. I'm under no delusions that this will bring the change we deserve, that requires actual political action. But liberating art and information is actually possible thanks to filesharing and so we ought to do so.
People seem to be missing the point about Bethesda's guilt. I know that Bethesda cannot give this game for free and I take for granted that you know they cannot, my point is that because they can't, they should not exist. I'm not a fool, I know how the world around me works and that games would not be made at this scale (but they would still be made...art LONG predates the profit motive and exists even today where no profit is to be had, and no one could possibly snuff out the human drive to make art) and am willing to take those consequences. I believe withholding art from the public is stealing from the common heritage of mankind, and so we ought to strive for a system in which art can be made and shared freely because people's needs are taken care of. And yes, I focus on art and information because it is the topic here and it is particularly close to my heart, not because my beliefs stop there.
I just want to say one more time that I wasn't trying to preach here or start a fight. I just wanted to express my sadness at this situation. That's it. I only respond because I don't like having my views misrepresented.
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Games are made to make profit, Bethesda made it and have legal rights to distribution, without profit games would not be made at this scale.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say to be honest.
Like I said downthread, I wasn't really looking at derailing this thread by starting a debate, but to clarify my position, the industry as it exists today collapsing is entirely okay with me. I'd be happy to live in a world where all games were freely distributed public domain solo endeavors, small collaborations, and the rare larger (but still not this large, likely) productions organized as public works or naturally-occurring oddities.
Christ, theft of property "$2,500-$10,000". That's a lot of copies.
it sounds like he was listing to sell the actual game, not just 45 minutes of footage of the game...
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