this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2024
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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Basically the title

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[–] [email protected] 146 points 1 month ago (4 children)

You should go read Microsoft's attempt at excluding Linux/Unix from running on x86 using ACPI!

https://web.archive.org/web/20070202174648/http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03020.pdf

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Btw, in the end, they did this with their office format.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Browser too, and the whole activeX, and DirectX api system to practically force windows only development.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yeah, same with gaming until Proton came along

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 month ago (7 children)

for the millionth time they get to stand on the shoulders on all the wine development that came before it. and now we have to reckon with the bullshit of proton patches that never go upstream to make wine better for all

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

for the millionth time

Why are you mad at me? Have I ever even interacted with you before?

Calm down.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

nah nah nah addressing the room is all

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Coincidently one of the things they list (named pipes) as an improvement is something I've had a nuisance with for years. there's multiple things that I would love wine to have that it does not but proton does

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago

:O The Archive! It's back online!! WOOOOO

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Unix also including mac and bsds?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

@Mwa @wildbus8979 Yes, early on there was AT&T and Berkley, System-V became AT&T's mainstream though there were off-shoots like CB-Unix for PDP11/70's which only had 64k I+D space, and Berkeley had 4.2 and 4.3BSD, and now you have offshoots of those, such as FreeBSD and NETBSD, MacOS is a highly mutilated BSD sitting atop a Mach micro-kernel with the Mac finder sitting on top of the whole mess. The Mach microkernel provides a layer of hardware abstraction that makes it easy to jump between architectures as Mac has often done. What I do not like about MacOS is that they include only drivers necessary for their hardware and forbid the use on Non-Mac's by license. This limits your selection of things like video cards to those they specifically chose to use.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Ohh yeah locked down unix like the one used in game consoles like Playstation and Nintendo switch (these consoles are very very locked down no terminal or anything) and macos (less locked down) as well atleast macos you can install outside of the appstore which I HATED on ios and iPados

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

BSDs mostly, Mac wasn't a Unix based system at the time. It also didn't run on x86.

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[–] [email protected] 77 points 1 month ago (5 children)

The 90's? Locked bootloaders would've meant people woukdve simply bought different machines without a locked bootloader.

See the IBM/Phoenix BIOS war - it's essentially the same thing. IBM didn't want to license their BIOS to everyone, so Phoenix reverse engineered it. If I remember right, IBM was trying to lock everyone to using their OS.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

its good to remember computers were used mostly by the computer people back then.

now with layman using theses devices en masse, things are a bit different. they dont need the nerds ro have a successful product anymore.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 month ago

This! Manufacturers were trying to lock people into their systems, just by different means. Reverse engineering a piece of low-level software (BIOS) so that you could run high-level software written for that machine architecture on different hardware was the main battle of the day.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Made me think of the first season of Halt and Catch Fire.

[–] 0x0 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Liked the first season but worry the second is crap so haven't watched it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

I really enjoyed all 4 seasons.

It's very character driven, which I know isn't everyone's cup of tea. I enjoyed seeing characters grow and change through the seasons and loved the way the show moved through different eras of technology.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

The ’90s*

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

IBM built the original PC from off the shelf components and for some reason negotiated a non-exclusive license for MS-DOS with Microsoft. The only thing in the PC they held a copyright on was the BIOS ROM. A few companies tried making clones, IIRC Eagle Computer just brazenly dumped the IBM BIOS and used that and got sued out of existence. I believe it was Compaq that developed their own MS-DOS compatible BIOS from scratch that did not infringe so IBM had no case to sue. IBM got a competitor they didn't want, and the PC became a 40 year platform.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Valid question. You can ask this about many things:

Would the Internet as we know it exist if Facebook, AOL, and Yahoo had united to create a walled garden?

Would Macbooks as we know them today exist without an open source ecosystem? Would the company Appke exist? Would there be an iPhone?

Would the web exist without Linux? Both developed at the same time, 1991 till now, and most stuff runs on Linux servers.

Would the people who build all the hardware and software even be interested in computers had they not played with (build) computers in the 90ies? What if we had given them an iPad aith CandyCrush that just works; and not BIOS codes, cables, extension cards and drivers?

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago

What if we had given them an iPad aith CandyCrush that just works

We'll know the answer in just a few more years here. Whole generation growing up that way currently.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago

On the “web without Linux”, I imagine it probably would have been scattered across a few proprietary Nixes until FreeBSD emerged from the AT&T lawsuit, upon which FreeBSD would have become the dominant web server.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I think you're forgetting where Linux was the most successful by far: Servers and Android. Server guys do what they want, if you tell them they can only use software you allow them to, they will laugh at you and buy their data center elsewhere. Android has had locked bootloaders forever (I actually think even my very first phone had one).

So maybe development would have been harder? I mean, we don't have looked bootloaders on desktop even today, not really locked at least, so it's hard to tell. Linux's main audience would not have cared I think.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Early Android (circa 2009) didn't have locked bootloaders.

Google wanted people to experiment, which was basically free research for them. Pixel's today are unlocked when purchased from Google.

Even my earliest Verizon phones weren't bootloader locked - they didn't start doing that for a few years (my last Verizon phone in 2012 wasn't bootloader locked). And Verizon is arguably the worst vendor when it comes to bootloader locked phones.

[–] 0x0 9 points 1 month ago

Google wanted people to experiment, which was basically free research for them.

Embrace, ... you know the rest.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

locked bootloaders are still a thing mostly on the US.

over here having them locked is the exception, not the norm.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

What? At least two years ago, all had locked bootloaders and half of the vendors wouldn't let you unlock it. "Here" being central europe.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

here in south america they don't seem to be locking most of them.

granted, not all phones have an active developer porting an os to it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Mean, so it's a regional thing. But why do they lock in US and Europe?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

i know us carriers dont like bootloader unlocking. not sure about europe.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Things just weren't like that then. Otherwise all PC peripherals would be locked down too, so no device drivers. That was already a problem with cheap windows crap. But the better stuff was documented.

Maybe there would be no Linux but that isn't as bad as it sounds, since BSD Unix was being pried loose at the time, plus there were other kernels that had potential. And the consumer PCs we use now weren't really foreseen. We expected to run on workstation class hardware that was more serious (though more expensive) than PCs were at the time. They would have stayed less locked down.

Asded: PCs were an interesting target because there was a de facto open hardware standard, making the "PC compatible" industry possible. So again, without that, we would have used different hardware.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (5 children)

Seconding that's a not-how-things-were.

The lovely thing with legacy architectures (6502, 68k, x86, z80, etc.) that were in use during that time is that they were very very simple: all you needed to do was put executable code on a ROM at the correct memory address, and the system would boot it.

There wasn't anything required other than making sure the code was where the CPU would go looking for it, and then it'd handle it from there.

Sure, booting an OS meant that you needed whatever booted the CPU to then chain into the OS bootloader and provide all the things the OS was expecting (BIOS functions, etc.) but the actual bootstrap from 'off' to 'running code' was literally just an EPROM burner away.

It's a lot more complicated now, but users would, for the most part, not tolerate removing the ability to boot any OS they feel like, so there's enough pressure that locked shit won't migrate down to all consumer hardware.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I wonder what the newest PC motherboard with the BIOS ROM in a socketed DIP chip is.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There would most probably be no Linux since experimenting with it would be quite hard, almost no one would be able to test install it and thus, Linus would probably give up on the project... or just be a historic reference.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Back when Bill Gates was still in his dad's ballsack, I was using UNIX on mainframes.

When he finally got out, and was flapping around on the lounge room rug, we were using PDP-7 and PDP-9's (which were 18 bit..)

Arguably, the OS on these were lesser-UNIX style and more FORTRAN.

But then came the PDP-10 and PDP-11, a bunch of DEC hardware which cemented the way forward to UNIX(like) OS.

None of this hardware cared about Bill's "DOS".

In fact, the last "upgrade" (sad to say) I did, was a BSD based Solaris SunOS around 2005 (at which point MS had acquired it as Santa Cruz Operations (SCO). Where the company I worked for had let go the 'unix' software for "modern" windows and no longer supported the customers in the old version.

So to answer your question about locking down bootloaders, it made no difference. MS DOS was never gonna run on the main steam hardware that was prevalent at the time. Not because it was locked in with us, but because we were locked in with it.

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