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165

Algerian boxer Imane Khelif shakes hands with her opponent who called her a demon yesterday (files.catbox.moe)

submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 3 months ago (1 children)

On the gender controversy...the Olympics pool from so many humans that for many years now, you can tell just visually that top contenders are those naturally selected with genetic traits lending them unusual prowess in their sport. For strength based sports, more women with male traits rise to the top and vice-versa for men in more physiologically female dominated areas.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah. Should Michael Phelps have been banned from the Olympics because his genes gave him a perfect body for swimming, giving him an unfair advantage over those who don't? Where is the line drawn?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Pretty much

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Do not show this to a biologist unless you want to get lectured for a bit.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I'm not sure if the meme conveys my point precisely. I'm not saying that the Olympics are a genetic superman breeding program.

I'm saying that if you put a call out across the globe for the most gifted competitors for decades, you're going to be getting people who are already deeply passionate about their events, but if you presume that level of competitive spirit to begin with, then you're going to start seeing people who are also genetically advantaged emerge as top competitors.

Michael Phelps is already an incredibly passionate swimmer, but then again so is everyone in the pool with him. He's got his super long arms that, if he weren't competitive, wouldn't be worth a damn, but combined with his training and commitment help give him an edge.

I bet if you did a little digging you'd see all sorts of genetic quirks among top level Olympians. Weight lifters with surprisingly dense muscle fiber, skaters and gymnasts with extra-robust inner ears, target shooters with extraordinary eyesight. It's not meant to take away from their talent or the work they've done, but it's not any more surprising than seeing extraordinarily tall players in the NBA, or extraordinarily stocky NFL linebackers.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Iunno, sounds like a compliment to me.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Certainly could be in context.

Was it?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

If you're my opponent and you give me a compliment like that, it's better than anything my teammates could say.

[+] [email protected] -44 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

The difference in shoulder and arm muscle size... 💀

Edit: so many votes 😆 Hit me up, let's talk about what's bothering you all about calling out the difference in their muscle size. 👍 I'm here for it.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 3 months ago (2 children)

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

Also strong arms 👍

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

^hit ^me ^in ^the ^face ^pls

[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Yep. She's a boxer. That's what boxers (both in this case) look like

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I'm saying the person in red looks a lot stronger, with bigger muscles.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

The one on the left has their arm in flexion, making their bicep contract, making it shorter and rise up like that. The one on the right has their arm in extension and therefore the bicep is longer and less exposed. We also know nothing about hydration, and all sorts of other things that would make the perceived size of their muscles different.

TL;DR your argument seemed disingenuous or misinformed. I am guessing that is the reason for down votes.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I don't actually see an argument anywhere? Just an observation, so the downvote confuse me. Is everyone on a hair trigger because of all that manufactured controversy?

She's also got tan lines that would make a cyclist proud while blonde needs to get out more.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Fair. It is so easy to misunderstand and assume things in text from, and in English in general.

The person I was replying to "could" have been dog whistling as well. Probably that was the thought in my head. I need to get off the fucking Internet.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'm not dog whistling. Red looks a lot stronger to me, with clearly bigger muscles, arms in flexion or not.

Red's opponents have said "I've never been hit so hard", as reported in the media.

There is clearly something going on here. I am saying that.

But what I'm not saying a word of is whether or not I think this person should be able to compete against women. That is not for me to decide. I also actually don't have an opinion on the matter. That's the doggone truth. 🤷‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You're not dog whistling, you're just certain that something fishy is going on when one athlete is bigger and stronger than another. You clearly are trying to imply something, why not just woman-up and say it?

The people whose job it is to decide already did and she qualified. What more is there to do, unless you think they need to look at it again because they got it wrong?

Yes, you totally have no opinion on it whatsoever which is why you vague-posted a "just asking questions" type comment on here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

You clearly are trying to imply something

I'm not trying to imply anything, no. Everything I wanted to express, I already have, in words, in these comments. Nothing to hide.

why not just woman-up and say it?

lol

The people whose job it is to decide already did and she qualified. What more is there to do, unless you think they need to look at it again because they got it wrong?

I'm not saying they got it wrong. This is a very ethically tricky question with a large gray area, considering the large protests and anger sent in both directions.

It's very difficult to be morally/ethically objective in this matter because we don't know exactly all the details of what it means, physiologically, to be trans, or non-binary, or whatever else. And especially when someone who might have a chromosome anomaly enters the picture, the gray zone expands. "Fairness" is extremely tricky now because of how we set up the binary-separate competitions of men and women, now that we finally know that gender can be very fluid.

Yes, you totally have no opinion on it whatsoever which is why you vague-posted a "just asking questions" type comment on here.

You are confusing "observation" and "opinion". I have made an observation, that the boxers facing this person as opponents are themselves reacting to the unusual build and strength of this person, and I am also reacting to and observing the visual difference that I can readily see.

But I have no opinion on whether or not they should be able to compete against women, because I have next to no knowledge whatsoever on trans or non-binary physiology/psychology, or for other such LGBTQ+ people. It wouldn't make sense to try to form an opinion based on nothing at all.

The only opinions that I have on this is that 1) respect comes above all, and that 2) sports should be played on equal terms. 🤷‍♂️ Whether or not (2) is achievable in this case, I have no idea. Maybe, maybe not. We probably will never know. At least not in our lifetime.

"just asking questions" type comment

I'm not asking any questions either, because I'm not really actually interested in boxing, nor in trying to actually figure out whether or not this person should be able to compete. That would be a huge undertaking, requiring lots of resources, if it's even possible at all.

Thank you for joining in the discussion. I hope my stance is clearer now. 🤝

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

They're in the same weight class. Do you want shoulder-width classes as well? Does that fit your snowflake sensibilities?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Uh... Why are you calling my sensibilities "snowflake"?

I get that they're in the same weight class, otherwise they wouldn't be competing.

No I don't want "shoulder classes", what kind of suggestion is that? Do you think I'm making some kind of complaint here? I'm just saying that Red's shoulders are much stronger than Blue's. Relax.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Mike Tyson looked a lot stronger than his opponents. Should he get to compete?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Are you implying that I'm saying one of these women shouldn't get to compete?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Hey, I wanted to apologize. I disagree with what you were saying, but that doesn't give me an excuse to "straw-man" you to hell and avoid understanding what you're saying. I misunderstood parts of what you were saying and willingly chose to stay ignorant instead of re-reading

I'm sorry

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

We all make mistakes sometimes. No harm done. 🤝 Thank you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Its not that different. She doesn't have much mass on her arm its just flexed. Blue would look similar if she flexed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

Mmh. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, I think. Looks strikingly different to me. Not radically different, just strikingly. 🤷‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Shame on you for sharing your opinion. Think of the children!!!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

I'M SO SOWWY 😭