Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Please don't post about US Politics.
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [email protected] or [email protected].
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email [email protected]. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
For one, the United States lacks a good press corps of independent journalists with broad reach.
Everything is either politicized or commercialized. Shock value sells. Balanced rational discourse does not. Polarization makes too much money for too many people.
On top of that, a systematic destruction of education and a stranglehold of religion practically makes ignorance inevitable.
Maybe we could repair it, but it would take Republicans being blocked from making any decisions for several decades at this point.
It’s a catch-22. We can’t fix it, until we fix it.
No no......we had it fixed for centuries, until it was intentionally dismantled over the past 50-70 years (depending on where you wish to place the official start date.) For me, I place it during the 1964 presidential campaign, as that's the markings of the first ever attack ad.
If you want the public to care about your politics, then politics needs to be about the policies of those politics. Reflection from within. Rather than "but what about the other guy? He's bad."
If candidate number one tells you "I will raise taxes, and use the money to pay for schools and roads". And a second candidate says "I will lower taxes by dismantling social security". You as a voter then have a choice to make. Pay slightly more in taxes, with better roads, and a better future for the next generation. OR pay less taxes, and probably have your retirement vanish.
Instead, that same scenario today would be "The other guy wants to take your retirement! He's bad!" and the second candidate says "The other guy is raising taxes. He's bad!"
So now the general public thinks both candidates are bad, and nobody looks into what the outcome of their other choices have historically been. This then leads them to vote based on sound bytes, rather than historical accuracies.
The end result is nobody cares about politics, because it's all bullshit anyways.
No no…we had it fixed for centuries
I really don't understand you there.
No, in fact the very founding of the USA was arguably done primarily so that the ruling class could disregard the respectful boundaries that the English imposed to avoid strife with Native Americans and other colonial powers, which incidentally tended to curb our exploiting the land willy-nilly as we've shamelessly done since. It also locked out women and slave voters, preserving a classist system.
Since then there's been various periods of little / negligible useful social policies, as well as periods in which the ultra-wealthy and common capitalists were UNCHECKED in their ability to thoroughly exploit people and form monopolies, etc etc. Seriously, if the Roosevelts hadn't come along, those things might have progressed scarily unchecked.
So, no-- I certainly don't see evidence that our form of democracy was 'fixed for centuries.' No, the fact is it's been a shaky, wild, perilous ride from the day one.
...the 1964 presidential campaign, as that’s the markings of the first ever attack ad.
Maybe in terms of TV, but TV is just a natural extension of media, and media in the States has been used since... at least the early 1800's? to completely slag-off or outright attack enemy candidates. Indeed, it's been a perfect blood-bath of disinformation at times, which doesn't even address all the nasty, vile tricks used to disenfranchise, or outright turn away undesirable voters at the polls. Which yes-- includes outright violence against undesirable voters across centuries in the States.
So, yeah... that all happened.
Altho I DO agree with you that somewhere between 50-70yrs back, the USA has been outright under attack by right-wingers, paving the way for fascism. Basically attacking most of the progress made under FDR and even Republican presidents like Ike.
Yeah it's hard trying to save democracy when a large portion of the country has been brainwashed to destroy it all while thinking they're the most patriotic.
I'm still amazed judges are so clearly divided into groups. I consider being a judge to require a degree of impartiality and authority that anyone clearly identifying as democratic or republican should be disqualified for. Democratic perhaps not since their more centric than left leaning or far left :/. Point being the one occupation that mandates impartiality is highly politicised. Of course everything is f*cked. The rule of law is not dictated by the majority or enforced by the trustworthy.
Many reasons. Regular politics is boring, and pop culture Facebook TikTok YouTube is all so much more captivating.
Also, so many Americans are struggling to survive, so there isn't enough time to engage with the political process in a meaningful way. I wonder if it's an intentional effort by the uber wealthy.
Inconvenient coincidence or grand plan, either way, its a crystal clear indicator that the whole constitution needs a rewrite.
I feel like that may be the closest unifying political opinion, which we need... We can hash out the details Constitutional Convention style after we get rid of the muck....
How could we make politics fun for a wider audience?
Put a clown in the race that says outrageous things and the media can't get enough of.
Foreign and corporate disinformation campaigns aided by consolidation of TV and print media as well as social media monopolies. Combine that with a lack of time or energy from working long hours, long commutes, and a lack of ability to take time off, much less devote energy to sorting out disinformation that is so common.
Our media apparatus and schooling don't promote critical thinking.
Ok so I study political science (second semester so not an expert at all) and last semester I had to research a lot about turnout rates for people in less fortunate situations. The answer is really simple actually. If people live in shit situations they don't trust the government and they start to not care. Education is worse when you don't have enough money. There is also a constant struggle to make politics feel closer to the people because that directly impacts if you will educate yourself and go participate. Unfortunately politics feels like it is either actively against you or at least doesn't do anything for you if you are at the bottom .One thing that might be important in the US is that slums decrease political awareness / willingness to vote because these people who are probably not going to care are surrounded by more people that don't care. So if noone around you says something good about the government you are going to hate it even more.
All of this leads to an underrepresentation of these groups which leads to their problems being overlooked or underestimated which leads to worse conditions which leads to less political activity which leads to less representation....its a cycle that makes millions of peoples lives worse every day. And at some point they just don't care about politics because politics seems to not care about them. None of my sources are in English so get bozoed I could be lying about all of this.
Most people everywhere are very politically unaware. Here's a decent site that demonstrates this. Basically, the knowledge we (by which I mean humans, not just Americans, of which I am not one) have leads us to make inaccurate assumptions about the other stuff.
Neat site.
It's so much easier to take someone at their word instead of looking into the many interwoven facts and details yourself. In fact, it can take so long fact-checking things these days to combat mis/disinformation that people simply.... don't.
It's way more laborious to disprove a lie than it is to simply recount a lie.
Russia may not have a decent military, or a decent government, but they are masters at controlling other countries public opinions.
I had a comment removed a few days ago because Lemmy has an automod which accused me of being ablist. In reality I was responding to a comment that was trying to push the narrative that Ukraine started the war, and is responsible for the war. It went on to say many MANY more completely untrue things, but definately tried painting russia as the good guy. I basically accused him of being brain dead, with a word that the automod didn't like.
But I'm pretty convinced they were a russian disinformation agent.
Corrupt plutocracy of a government removed the law that prevented mass ownership of news and media outlets. It consolidated everything into just a handful of media outlets that talk to the nation.
That, along with complete over saturation. A person trying to sort through a huge country comprised of their city government, plus their county, plus state, plus national level politics across a nation that's 8,000,000 square kilometers (not including Alaska and Hawaii) is just too much for most people to decipher and sort through.
It's even harder to mass protest here. It's not like everyone can drive inside of less than two hours away and show up in London or something. Getting to our capital to protest could be quite literally a 40 hour drive away.
That last part is particularly noteworthy. If I’m in the UK, I can make it to London in 8 hours pretty much regardless of where I am. That’s less than a full work day of driving. Many Americans have done that to visit family.
If I’m in France, I’m never more than 9 hours away from Paris. Again, many Americans have done a drive like that just to go on holiday.
If I’m in Newport Oregon, it’ll take 43 hours of driving (and crossing two full mountain ranges) to reach Washington DC. That’s a full work week of driving, just to reach the capitol.
So most Americans protest locally if they’re able. But that’s far less effective, because it splits the protests apart and makes them easier to ignore or break. Americans can’t go full “light Paris on fire for a full month because the retirement age is getting raised” because there aren’t enough protestors near the capitol to do that. The small protests that do start almost unanimously get broken up by cops as quickly as they started.
-
Corporate media with bias to keep the discourse between two seemingly distant yet very close poles.
-
Lack of corporate and rich taxation
-
Structural defunding and discrediting the public education system
-
Atomized working class
A mixture of poor education in some states combined with a steady, deliberate demoralizing of the voters by the political class.
Trying to survive
Exactly as planned by the reigning political parties.
I think the real problem is that they think they're aware, but are ignorant or unwilling to learn about the actual issues.
For example, with climate change it's a lot easier to think and want it to be not real. They know what it is, but it's a lot easier to believe it's not real. It's a lot more effort and leaving your comfort zone to learn about it and realize how fucked it is.
Most people build themselves into bubbles, where changing their views would force them to readjust their world views and for most, they dont want to
This is what I see from my folks. That believe anything that supports their existing views, but anything that would require them to understand something they aren't aware of, they suddenly don't trust the sources. They say things like "science can be used to say all sorts of things, we can't know that they're right this time!"
These are the same parents who taught me critical thinking when reading newspaper articles when I was a kid. Suddenly they can't be bothered to employ the same critical thinking to articles they read today.
I still blame Facebook and the other similar social media platforms. They have catered to and encouraged the short attention spans we have today
"I don't live in a swing state so my vote does not matter anyways".
I am not a US citizen, that is just something I picked up from a random interview of a non-voter a while ago. I don't know if that is a common opinion, but it made sense to me in explaining political disinterest.
It has to do with the electoral college and how it limits voting power. So it contributes to political disinterest.
Because we don't teach people ANYTHING about the political or legal system here (and legal matters a lot, since it's intrinsically tied to how we make and enforce laws here).
For instance, just figuring out where to vote, when to vote, and what you need to bring (and legally can't bring), varies WILDLY state to state. Real examples:
I lived in state A, where the primaries were just done with a ballot, you physically had to show up at a specific day and time to fill put in person
Moved to state B, where the primaries were at a different time and were done as a caucus. Meaning I had to physically go and stand there as my body was my vote. They were unprepared for voter turnout and it took 6 hours to vote. There were almost no chairs. Handicapped people, elderly people, and people who had to work, left. Like they just couldn't vote. It was horrible to witness. That's our rights being denied.
And also at state B, you had to be registered in advance and they needed to have record of it. If there was some weird error where you weren't on the list, tough.
Moved to state C, where everything is super easy and done by mail. Just mail in your ballot. No big.
We need to take kids on field trips to vote and teach them actually how to do it all. Including looking up smaller election dates. It's not actually that easy or that streamlined.
We need to take kids to town halls to show them how to observe public meetings. We need to show them how to run for office. The public deserves a clear and thorough education on this, as much as English or Math.
Here, we have mock elections in school, held with the same booths that the real elections are done. The kids make up political parties, then they go through the whole process, from getting their voter card (informing them about the vote and where the vote takes place or how to request vote-by-mail) to voting to counting and having results.
You don't do this in the US?
They did it in Arizona, but Republicans put a stop to it as too many kids were bringing their parents to vote.
It takes a lot of effort to stay on top of things, plus the research it takes to sort out fact from fiction. After all that investment, the amount of difference one can make is miniscule.
Constant defunding of public education, anti-intellectualism, and conservative idealism has made this nation as dumb as a bag of hammers. Being highly educated in America kind of feels like you have a superiority complex but it's also incredibly frustrating at times.
Can I ask how you cope with the frustration? Touching grass isn’t enough lately.
A lot of people just don't want to think about it. It oftentimes feels like your vote doesn't matter, which is generally true in Presidential elections unless you're in a swing state. And it often feels like you're just voting for the shiniest of two turds anyway.
Getting involved in politics at a local level, where your decisions actually have the most effect on your day-to-day life, is just too boring I guess.
Talking heads and a failing education system.
Civics was a single class in highschool.
We need a STEM type push for more civics in highschool and middle school.
Lots of great answers here.
I think one under mentioned cause is the effect of social media algorithms.
All major social media platforms use machine learning algorithms decide what to show in your feed. The algorithms are programmed to show you the things that have historically kept you on the site longer.
It’s human nature to upvote/read/support/engage with the things that agree with our world views, and downvote/dismiss/disengage/discredit the things that disagree with our worldview.
These two facts combined result in you seeing more of the content that aligns with your worldview, and more of the content from people who share your worldview. We’re all funnelled into communities of like minded individuals that repeat what we already believe, reinforcing whatever that is regardless of how factually correct it might be.
Dissenting information that might cause you to reconsider your position or become more politically aware is automatically filtered out.
And it’s not just social media either, even the algorithms behind search engines display this behaviour.
Long before social media existed, Google was tailoring search results to match the things you tend to click on. If you searched for news and typically clicked on the headlines biased towards one side or the other Google would start ranking site with that bias higher.
This wasn’t intentional (at least not originally) it was just a side effect of the algorithm, trying to figure out what you were most likely looking for.
For someone who, for example, believes the Earth is flat. If they were to type “is the Earth flat?” Into a search engine. They are much more likely to get results that “prove” the Earth is flat, then a person who believes the Earth is round, because the algorithm knows that they tend to click on articles that “confirm” the earth is flat.
Algorithms used by social media and search engines today, make it genuinely difficult to maintain a balanced worldview and find unbiased answers to any question. They are all designed to keep you engaged, And it is human nature to engage more with the things we agree with, regardless of truth.
The average American has been convinced that when they are done being a worker for the day, they become something "better" and more important... the consumer. The consumer has no needs other than consumption. The consumer has no wants other than consumption. Their fellows economically simply become their servants as that is the illusion created by the culture of consumption.
Look at most folks making less than $100k/year and who are voting Republican. Ask them why they are voting and they will give you a myriad of reasons, but (in my experience) it mostly boils down to "they're hurting the other team and I want to be part of the winning team." Some liberals will give you the same type of response, but it's less common (or less enthusiastically so maybe). It's less that our electorate has been dulled to political activity and more that politics has been turned into a participation sport with teams, branding, and merchandise.
In my experience, the greatest example of this are the folks who've been completely demoralized saying "both sides are the same." It is true that both the Republicans and Democrats are the same... if the only way politics affects you is economically (or if you can convince yourself that that is the case). It's not the politicians or even the parties that are hurting the average American, it's the Consumer Capitalism all sides of our politics back that's hurting us. Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you a fairytale like "USSR was good actually" or "PRC is good actually." Just as America and it's systems have problems, those countries and their systems had/have their own problems.
Being the core of the post-WWII Western hegemony, American politics has problems that are uniquely it's own; the old adage of "there are no poor Americans, only temporarily embarrassed millionaires" sadly holds true. It affects every level of our politics, culture, and society to the point where no one needs to propagandize to that effect... it's merely self-reinforces at this point. You work doubles at the Walmart to feed your family and to afford your cell phone plan because you're just one magic algorithm lift away from TikTok stardom... it'll happen -any day now- why worry about politics?
Are they? Who's doing that sociology stunt?
Mostly willful ignorance. They don't want to be aware and so are not aware.
At the same time they'll complain it's too hard to follow and on the other hand go into great detail about their NCAA Men's Basketball March Madness bracket.
imo, awareness is already a problem so i think political awareness is already a big leap.
most news channels are incentivized by money so it serves their sponsors and not the people.
One argument I don't think anyone else has made here - we have fewer restrictions on what can be advertised, where and when ads can be played, and how close to true those advertisements have to be than a lot of other countries do. I think this has the effect of wearing down people's ability and willingness to engage in logical analysis of the information they receive because we're constantly bombarded with information and most of it is bullshit to sell us crap we don't need, so we have to skim through and tune out a lot, and in that process I think a lot of information that's actually true but that people don't want to believe gets thrown out too.
Because things were good for a long time and nobody thought we’d lose our rights if we stopped paying attention. Same story throughout history.
As for the people being fed misinformation, they’re just rubes. Our education system failed them and now grifters who don’t care about America are taking advantage of them.