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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/programmer_humor

Context:

People have been asking for IPv6 Support on GitHub since years (probably a decade by now)

... and someone even got so annoyed that they decided to setup a dedicated website for checking this: https://isgithubipv6.live/

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[-] [email protected] 236 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Working in computing for years and this is what I've heard

2000: IPv4 is about to dry up, we really need to start moving to v6!

2005: OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING IPv4 IS ALMOST GONE! IPv6 IN THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO OR THE INTERNET WILL DIE!

2010: WE'RE SERIOUS THIS TIME IPv6 NEEDS TO BE A THING RIGHT NOW! HELP!

2015: Yeah, okay, NAT has served us well so far, but we can only take it so far, we really need v6 to be the standard in the next 5-10 years or we're in trouble!

2020: Um... guys? IPv6? Hello? Anyone? crickets

2024: IPv6ers are now the vegans of networking

this may or may not be satire, just laugh if unsure

[-] [email protected] 101 points 1 week ago

As a networker, ipv6 is the future. I'm a fan of it, but I don't really talk about it anymore because there's no point.

I threw in the towel after an ISP messed up so badly that I just couldn't bother anymore.

At a previous job a client I was doing some work for got a new internet connection at a new site, the ISP ran brand new fiber for it. This wasn't a new building or anything, but the fiber was new. They allocated them a static IPv4 thing as usual, and I asked the tech about V6, and they said we would have to take it up with the planning team, so I did. I was involved in the email chain at the end of the sales process to coordinate the hookup. So I asked. After many emails back and forth, I was informed the connection was allocated.

They allocated one single IPv6 subnet directly off of their device. I couldn't even.

For those that don't understand, the firewall we had connected to the device is an ipv6 router. What normally happens, especially in DHCP customer connections, is that the router will use DHCP-PD to allocate a subnet for the router to use on the LAN, and automatically set up a route to say "reach this subnet we allocated for this router, via this router" kind of thing. I'm dramatically simplifying, but that's the gist. In DHCP-PD, the router will also have an IPv6 address on the ISP-facing link to facilitate the connection. In the case of the earlier story, they gave us an entire subnet to communicate between the ISP and the router, and didn't give us a subnet for the client systems inside the network.

I did ask about this and I can only describe their reply as "visible confusion".

I know many who will still be confused by this point are people who have not used IPv6; to explain further: the IP on your local (LAN) systems needs to be a public IP address, because the router no longer does network address translation when sending your data to the internet. So the IP on the router has no bearing on your computer having a connection to the internet over v6. If your local computer does not have a globally unique ipv6 address, you cannot use IPv6. There are ways around this, NAT66 exists but it's incredibly bad practice in most cases. The firewall I was working with didn't really support NAT66 (at least, at the time) and I wasn't really going to set that up.

ISPs are the reason I gave up on IPv6.

I'll add this other story to reinforce it. I'll keep it brief. A different ISP for a different company at a different site entirely. The client purchased a static IPv4 address, and I asked about IPv6, as you do. To preface, I know this company and used them for my own connection at the time. They have IPv6 for residential clients via DHCP-PD. I was told, no joke, that because of the static IPv4 assignment, and how they execute that for businesses, that they couldn't add IPv6 to the connection, at all.

The last thing I want to mention is a video I saw, which is aptly named "CGN, a driver for IPv6 adoption" or something similar. It's a short lecture about the evils of carrier grade NAT, and how IPv6 actually fixes pretty much all the bs that goes with CGN, with fewer requirements and less overhead.

IPv6 is coming. You will prefer IPv4 until you understand how horrific CGN is.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago

Yep. It was mostly a joke. Mostly. The bungled adoption of v6 plus all the ways we can still leverage v4 is what's keeping v6 from being adopted any time soon, but one day we're going to have to rip off the band-aid and just go for it. Sure, v6 is going to bring its own issues and weirdness, but FUTURE!

[-] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I swear it's going to be a generational change where it takes a slow adoption by the younger network people as the older network people slowly retire. Kind of like how racism and sexism has diminished. It wasn't like we changed anyone's mind, just that people held onto it until they died and younger people just said, "The future is now, old man." and moved past it.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago

"IP address are four sets of numbers with dots in between AND THAT'S HOW I LIKES IT!" - Me, an old network guy

Honestly the fact that I can't remember or type IPv6 addresses is a big reason I haven't bothered figuring it out.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I imagine you sitting there like Scotty, "Give me an ip address, not no colon, not no hexadecimal, and not no bloody double colon. Just 4 numbers between 0 and 255 with a dot in between."

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[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

All I want to say about this is that the technology specialists, especially in networking, are usually not this opposed to change. Things change for networking and systems folks all the time. We're used to it. Most of the time the hard sell is with the management folks who Green light projects. They don't want to "waste" money on something that "nobody wants".

Legitimately, one company I asked about IPv6 said to me that customers had not requested it, so they haven't spent any time on implementing it.

As if customers know what's good for them....

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[-] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago

I gave it the old college try about 6 months ago. Found out how to send the req for a subnet to my ISP. Configured my opnsense. When it worked, it worked. But it would randomly stop routing regularly. After a lot of troubleshooting determined it was the isp and have up.

Maybe I'll try again in another 6 months.

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[-] [email protected] 40 points 1 week ago

But new IPv4 allocations have run out. I've seen ISPs that won the lottery in the 90s/2000s (when the various agencies controlling IP allocations just tossed them around like they were nothing) selling large blocks for big money.

Many ISPs offer only CGNAT, require signing up to the higher speed/more expensive packages to get a real IP, or charge extra on top of the standard package for one. I fully expect this trend to continue.

The non-move to IPv6 is laziness, incompetence, or the sheer fact they can monetize the finite resource of IPv4 addresses and pass the costs onto the consumer. I wonder which it is.

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[-] [email protected] 29 points 1 week ago

IPv4 dried up a long time ago. But it's different for every country. Countries like US and UK simply took over large blocks of IPv4 addresses and countries like Brazil got fucked. So, if you're in a country with a large pool, you won't notice any issues today, but if you're not so lucky, a lot of internet services are not accessible to you because some dickhead got IP banned and that IP is shared by thousands if not millions of users in your country.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

The adoption of IPv6 on some segments of the Internet has lessened the crisis around IPv4 availability.

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[-] [email protected] 89 points 1 week ago

The perpetual chicken egg problem of IPv6: many users don't have IPv6 because it's not worth it because everything is reachable via IPv4 anyways because IPv6 only service don't make sense because they will only reach a subset of users because many users don't have IPv6.....

[-] [email protected] 55 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yes but IPv4 is becoming expensive and it's annoying having to use a middleman to clone github repos on a v6-only VPS

IPv6 is not hard, there is no excuse not to have it

[-] [email protected] 22 points 1 week ago

I mean, yes and no. For an individual or individual systems? No, it's not hard. But I used to oversee a WAN with multiple large sites each with their own complex border, core, and campus plant infrastructure. When you have an environment like that with complex peerings, and onsite and cloud networks it's a bit trickier to introduce dual stack addressing down to the edge. You need a bunch of additional tooling to extend your BGP monitoring, ability to track asynchronous route issues, add route advertisements etc. when you have a large production network to avoid breaking, it's more of a nail biter, because it's not like we have a dev network that is a 1-1 of our physical environment. We have lab equipment, and a virtual implementation of our prod network, but you can only simulate so much.

That being said, we did implement it before most of the rest of the world, in part because I wanted to sell most of our very large IPv4 networks while prices are rising. But it was a real engineering challenge and I was lucky to have the team and resources and time to get it done when it wasn't driving an urgent, short timeline need.

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[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Honestly this isn't even true anymore. Most major ISPs have implemented dual stack now. The customer doesn't know or care because it's done at the CPE for them.

I use a browser extension which tells me if the site I'm at is 6 or 4 or mixed. In 2024 most major sites support V6. A lot of this is due to CDN supporting it natively.

The fact that GitHub doesn't is quickly becoming the exception.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

May I ask which extension you are using?

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[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago

If IPv6 is done right you don't even know you have it. If you use a cell phone or a home Internet, there is a high chance you are already using IPv6.

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[-] [email protected] 56 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I’m not using it because by and large it’s not implemented properly on consumer hardware, and my ISP doesn’t care if their IPv6 network is broken.

[-] MagicShel 38 points 1 week ago

I've tried multiple times to go IP6 only. I mostly thought, despite my reasonable understanding of IP4, that I was the problem in trying to set it up. I found my dns host was being forgotten multiple times a day, set to something invalid, then it would time out and revert back to the working one. I couldn't figure out how to connect two computers together for Minecraft.

Now I hear it was just garbage consumer hardware and software? Fuck me. So much wasted time and effort to say nothing of believing I had turned into a tech idiot.

[-] [email protected] 28 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You’re not an idiot. You’re using tools that don’t really do what they claim because it wasn’t considered an important use case.

IPv6 is great, but we haven’t seen enough pain yet to really drive adoption on the home LAN.

My solution uses the ISP box to deliver stateless auto conf, and bridging a consumer router. I can’t open ports but at least I get an IP.

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[-] GTG3000 54 points 1 week ago

"Everyone is using IPv6"

It's barely supported. Most providers here "offer IPv6", but each has a different gotcha to actually using it, if it works at all and they didn't just route you through hardware that doesn't know what it is.

[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

What's “here”? Here in Germany, mine has it for maybe 10 years or so. Basically since launch day.

And new ISPs only have v6 since all legacy (v4) blocks have been sold years ago.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

Just because you have a IPv6 address doesn't mean you're actually using it. At best you're tunnelling IPv4 traffic through your carrier's IPv6 network. Current estimates (from Cloudflare) show only about 34% of the global internet uses IPv6.

If you only used IPv6, you wouldn't be able to access nearly 66% of the internet.

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[-] [email protected] 45 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Why should we care? So address space may run out eventually - that's our ISPs' problem.

Other than that I actually don't like every device to have a globally unique address - makes tracking even easier than fingerprinting.

That's also why my VPN provider recommends to disable IPv6 since they don't support it.

[-] [email protected] 29 points 1 week ago

Because people in countries with ISPs that are unable to provide IPv4 (e.g. too expensive) can't access GitHub easily.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

even easier then fingerprinting.

than*

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[-] [email protected] 40 points 1 week ago

My ISP doesn't provide an IPv6 connection.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago

Mine provides a connection, but doesn’t expose ports on v6. So I can access v6 services but can’t self-host any.

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[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago

rose are red, violets are blue, money is the reason we can't have nice things.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

Roses in summer, violets in spring, it’s trivially easy this rhyming thing

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[-] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago

Just remember we got rid of TLS 1.0 the same thing can be done with IPv4. It's time for browser makers to put "deprecated technology" warnings on ipv4 sites.

[-] [email protected] 67 points 1 week ago

IPv4 isn't depreciated, it's exhausted. It's still a key cornerstone of our current internet today.

We still have "modern" hardware being deployed with piss-poor IPv6 support (if any at all). Until that gets fixed, adoption rates will continue to be low. Adding warnings will only result in annoying people, not driving for improvement.

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[-] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago

I'll start using it after I migrate to Wayland.

[-] starman 15 points 1 week ago

How do you guys remember IPv6 addresses?

[-] [email protected] 30 points 1 week ago

You shouldn't need to remember IP addresses, they invented DNS to solve that problem lol

Even so, the addresses can be even easier to remember because we get a-f as well as digits, my unique local subnet is fd13:dead:beef:1::/60 cause I like burgers haha

[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You do need to know it when you're working with subnets and routing tables.

Unless you have anything but a flat network structure with everything in one subnet, working with IPV6 is a giant PITA.

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago
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[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

2 months ago I thought I'd start learning IPv6 and started watch some intro videos on YouTube.

Holy crap... It's a beast and it just felt like if you don't know what you're doing you might lose all control over your network. Ok. So a device didn't get a dhcp address? No problem... It creates it's open IP address and starts talking and try to get out on internet on its own....

Normally that's not a problem since your normal home router wouldn't route 169.254.x.x.... But it just seems like there's A LOT to think about before activating IPv6 at home. I've got a Creality K1 Max... Fun thing: factory reset also creates a new MAC Address... So there's no way in hell thay I just let her lose by activating IPv6.

Ps. Yes, I most likely panic because I haven't figured out IPv6... But until I understand IPv6 there's just going to be IPv4.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

Ok. So a device didn't get a dhcp address? No problem... It creates it's open IP address and starts talking and try to get out on internet on its own....

Its not that different from a conceptual point of view. Your router is still the gate keeper.

Home router to ISP will usually use DHCPv6 to get a prefix. Sizes vary by ISP but its usually like a /64. This is done with Prefix Delegation.

Client to Home Router will use either SLACC, DHCPv6, or both.

SLACC uses ICMPv6 where the client asks for the prefix (Router Solicitation) and the router advertises the prefix (Router Advertisement) and the client picks an address in it. There is some duplication protection for clients picking the same IP, but its nothing you have to configure. Conceptually its not that different from DHCP Request/Offer. The clients cannot just get to the internet on their own.

SLACC doesn't support sending stuff like DNS servers. So DHCPv6 may still be used to get that information, but not an assigned IP.

Just DHCPv6 can also be used, but SLACC has the feature of being stateless. No leases or anything.

The only other nuance worth calling out is interfaces will pick a link local address so it can talk to the devices its directly connected to over layer 3 instead of just layer 2. This is no different than configuring 169.254.1.10/31 on one side and 169.254.1.11/31 on the other. These are not routed, its just for two connected devices to send packets to each other. This with Neighbor Discovery fills the role of ARP.

There is a whole bunch more to IPv6, but for a typical home network these analogies pretty much cover what you'd use.

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[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

I'm actually bit sad that I had to move onto a ISP which has zero IPv6 support, as I previously did have IPv6. The last thing I did on that connection was to debug the hell out of my IPv6 code I had developed.

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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
803 points (98.0% liked)

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