this post was submitted on 07 May 2024
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[–] [email protected] 240 points 6 months ago (2 children)

This is non-news, like all tech companies, they are bound by law to do this. It happens more than 6000 times per year for Proton. However, this user just had bad opsec. Proton emails are all encrypted and cannot be read unless law enforcement gets your password, which Proton does not have access to. Even if Proton hands over all data.

[–] 0x0 22 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Proton's mails are encrypted... between proton accounts. Send an email to a hotmail account and bye-bye encryption. Proton does rely on PGP so you can use that if the recipient supports it.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

They mean encrypted at rest. As in, Proton cannot hand over a copy of all your emails to a law enforcement agency, they don’t have access.

This means law enforcement would have to capture an unencrypted email in transit, or obtains your emails from either recipient individually.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 months ago

Mail stored in proton is encrypted

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago

https://proton.me/support/password-protected-emails

A Password-protected Email is an email that requires a password to open it. It’s a way you can send a secure, end-to-end encrypted email to anyone who isn’t on Proton Mail.

[–] [email protected] 147 points 6 months ago (3 children)

“Privacy” means two different things depending on the audience. For me privacy means that my information is not being used to advance some organizations commercial interest. For others it means that my information will never be shared with a government.

Don’t advertise to me

Or

Don’t narc on me

I guess I don’t really expect a company to resist pressure from government agencies on my behalf. Especially if I have been using their service to commit crimes in my country. If you are doing things your government would prefer you didn’t, hire a good lawyer and consult with them about what should be sent via email (spoiler, it’s nothing). The mafia doesn’t send emails, or put anything in writing, if you do crimes, you shouldn’t either.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I guess I don’t really expect a company to resist pressure from government agencies on my behalf.

Personally, I expect them to resist to the extent possible by law. The cops need to follow a lot of rules to make legally binding requests for data. I understand that if they do, there's not much a company can do other than hand out the info, but if there's a legal way to deny such a request, I expect the company to pursue it.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 months ago

Pretty much. I’m not expecting a company to spend millions of dollars in court costs and lawyer fees on my behalf. But if it’s clear that the government is overreaching, the company should at least go “hey uhh judge, wtf?”

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Companies selling data don't tend to be picky who they sell to. Governments and police buy data all the time.

The best part is a government can buy data and and can change the rules on what is illegal.

So, if they decide tomorrow that your innocent behavior is a threat, you're now a criminal.

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[–] [email protected] 127 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They provided the backup e-mail address

Upon receiving the recovery email from Proton Mail, Spanish authorities further requested Apple to provide additional details linked to that email, leading to the identification of the individual.

Just in case anyone thinks they decrypted mails and handed them over, nope. I hadn't thought about that "settings" are not encrypted. Guess if you want to stay anonymous you shouldn't add your private mail address in there as a backup.

[–] [email protected] 52 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yeah. Even if they couldn't hand over recovery emails, having a personal email as a backup to a "private and sensitive" email account is bad practice.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago (5 children)

But what do you do if that field is needed? A throwaway address won't work as it's easy to recreate. Buy your own domain and run a server?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I don't believe you need that field with Proton, correct me if I'm wrong. If you do need that field with an email provider, and you need complete opsec, use a different provider.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I put the Simplelogin email alias as my backup mail. Which forwards mail to my proton, so I guess it isn't really a backup. Even more so if you realize I need to sign into simplelogin with my protonmail account and protonmail owns Simplelogin.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 6 months ago

I just have no backup email at all. If I manage to lose my password manager file and forget my password, then I'm just fucking stupid anyway.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago

Ah yes the email ouroboros

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago (3 children)

No, domain names are tied to a person and, even if that person register the domain with fake person details, there will be a digital payment associated with the purchase.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I don’t know much about the case beyond some very lazy peripheral searching, but it strikes me that Proton’s compliance isn’t an issue, but the requests themselves are totally unjustifiable and based on malicious prosecutions to nab some separatists on ridiculous terrorism charges for their nonviolent action and protests.

This individual is suspected of being a member of the Mossos d’Esquadra (Catalonia’s police force) and of using their internal knowledge to assist the Democratic Tsunami movement.

The requests were made under the guise of anti-terrorism laws, despite the primary activities of the Democratic Tsunami involving protests and roadblocks, which raises questions about the proportionality and justification of such measures.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

The same thing which happened in the past. Antiterrorism laws used for -if I remember correctly - and environmental activist.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Doesn't look like Proton did anything wrong, they can't fight these requests and he was caught by identifying information he linked to his account.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

As much as some of us may dislike it when a company does these kinds of things. You can't really blame them for following the laws of the country that they are headquartered in.

You can blame them for operating there to begin with in cases like Apple in China, but you could hardly blame them for following the laws of the US where they are headquartered for example.

If the law of the land where the headquarters is requires them to give up the data they do have to partner nations then they don't really have much choice in the long run if they want to continue to exist.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Plus there isn't many jurisdictions with stronger privacy law than the swiss. It is unlike they made a bad choice for choosing a headquarters.

I guess they can operate on the public sea or the arctic, but I imagine the commute will be terrible.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 months ago

"Nobody's going to jail for you" is pretty much the way to think about any cloud privacy service. They may not keep logs unless they're required to, but in the end, they will comply to stay in business.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 6 months ago (3 children)

If you use ANYTHING other than face to face meetings when discussing something illegal, you get what you deserve.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 6 months ago

Although I like the idea of a drug smuggler typing "as per my previous email..."

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

Proton a few years ago disclosed the IP address of the user of a certain mailbox upon request by LEA. That was enough to get the person found and arrested (I don't remember what the case was about). They HAVE to comply with these requests, ~~but they DON'T need to log/retain those info~~ ETA: and I was wrong, thanks @[email protected] to set me straight. But I think the point still stands. I don't want to be ALWAYS be tied to a VPN, there are some scenarios where I can't use a VPN.

That was the moment I decided to selfhost my email server.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 6 months ago (4 children)

In that particular case they did need to log the ip because they were compelled to do so by a Swiss court.

That was an opsec failure on the user, if they used a VPN or Tor they would not have been caught.

[–] 0x0 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

A VPN would've only shifted the "blame" unless it was a decent one like IVPN.

Tor would've been much better, especially considering Proton has an .onion address.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago

Yes, by VPN I meant something decent. Not whatever spyware is top on the Play Store for circumventing geoblocks.

They were already using Proton Mail, they just were probably thinking that was enough. It would have been if the French had not been able to convince a Swiss court that their request was valid.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Posteo doesn't have to retain IPs and doesn't, it also doesn't retain payment info (though if you transfer by wire there's still a window where a payment can be traced AFAIU).

They will also absolutely forward any and all traffic for a particular account to law enforcement when given a court order. What's it with criminals thinking that they can outsource opsec to legitimate businesses. Defending against a state-level actor actively hunting you down, watching closely and pouncing on any and every mistake, is a vastly different beast than making sure google doesn't know about the butt plug you just bought.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 months ago (4 children)

What I am find curious about this is if a recovery email would have any weight in court. I can add whatever recovery email I want to an account. It doesn't have to be mine.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 months ago (1 children)

If your recovery email address is not yet verified, click the Verify now link and then the Send verification email button. You’ll be sent a link to confirm that the email address belongs to you.

https://proton.me/support/set-account-recovery-methods#how-to-add-or-change-a-recovery-email-address

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago (5 children)

I still find it fascinating that you can go to jail because there's an IP address in a log file somewhere or because of a screenshot of a messenger communication.

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