Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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Just recently we had a popular post: "The Will To Change Men, Masculinity, And Love By bell hooks". I can take a couple quotes from the preface of that book:
I think too many feminists do hate men, and to say "no true feminist hates men" is falling into the no true scotsman fallacy. Typically the loudest people in a group are the most extreme and I don't believe most feminists hate men, but I also think it's understandable how some people do believe that.
To share some of my own experiences:
I'm a cis, heterosexual, white male. I also pretty heavily defend human rights, try not to be a skeeze ball, and like to think of myself as generally a pretty decent dude. During the height of the MeToo movement and the #NotAllMen thing, though, it really felt like society as a large, or at least the parts of it I want to occupy, viewed many aspects of my simple existence as villainous.
Believe me, I KNOW that no one reasonable has ever thought it was all men, or all white people, or all straight people, or all cis gendered people. That doesn't stop it from hurting anymore when you're walking around the city with a woman you consider a really good friend, and she's posting pictures of stickers that actually DO say "all men suck" she finds to social media.
I'm also not blind. I know this is the same treatment that marginalized groups have faced since the dawn of time. Maybe it's finally time for men to get theirs. Or, we can all acknowledge that any condemnation over an immutable human feature just plain sucks. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
I just stopped bothering. My input was clearly neither desired nor welcome, so I stopped offering it. I'll happily stay out of the way, but if they want active support I want to stop hearing that my opinion isn't valid on any given set of subjects, before I even voice it.
Time to cut off such "friends". They don't deserve your time
I'd rather have the dialogue, honestly. Better to have some discussion. Even if it ends in the same thing, one or either of us may learn something.
Can you elaborate on which aspects of your simple existence were perceived as villainous?
Mostly the "man" part. Pretty clear in the OP I thought. I was quite simply born as a male, and happened to identify as that gender. A significant enough portion of the population seems to believe that, because a patriarchy exists, all men have benefited from it, and all men want to continue it. The same idea plays through well enough for skin color, and orientation.
I know what I am, I know my thoughts, my feelings and my intentions. It starts to play with your sense of self-worth to be told that these things, things that have never caused you to do anything to harm anyone else, must be bad parts of yourself, because look at what people have done in their name.
It's not the same scale, no. I'm not facing segregation, and don't have to fight for my right to vote. Any of a number of other advantages you want to point out. Yeah, I benefited in some ways from the circumstances of my birth. All of this, common talking points from the sides of the aisle that I want to belong to. The side of the aisle that believes that no person should ever feel marginalized because of something that they had no control over. To hear that, and then feel like these same people are telling you you're part of the problem because of your existence... It's not hard to see how that can really impact one's sense of worth to the world.
I don't mean to invalidate what you're feeling, but that's what it's like to be a minority in America. I have dealt with that in some shape or form for as long as I can remember. Sorry, I don't have any answers, but I do empathize with you.
Right. I explained in both of my previous comments that I understand that. I recognize that it's a similar mechanism of action, and that relatively speaking, I've got it good. It's really disheartening to see so many (the 'left' not you) getting so close to understanding that -everyone- deserves to be treated with respect by the default, and somehow turning it into a zero-sum game where, for it to get better for some, there must be a class that suffers.
It's not that there must be a class that suffers, it's that there is.
Is it necessary? If so, it's a zero-sum game. Fine. That's just going to encourage an endless cycle of warfare to be the class currently not suffering.
If it's not necessary, if it's NOT a zero-sum game, then why are we treating it like it is?
I'm sorry that you've had to experience this. It terrible to have sexism not only impacting one group of people, but both/all. I haven't experienced what you have, it's not possible for me to exactly as I'm female. Could you share one or two specific examples that made you feel that way? It would help me to understand your experience to help paint a picture. You are under no obligation to, nor does my request imply your argument is invalid.
Sometimes discrimination can be more of a gut feeling. Sometimes it is obvious but hidden, and sometimes it is direct. I'm going to list a few examples. None of which left me weeping and defeated, but all of them felt unpleasant. I want to hear your experience particularly so I can avoid doing this to others, but also because your experience is outside of my own.
Some of my examples:
It seems so silly to type out these things that hurt me. I almost feel it's an unfair ask to commit yours to 'paper', I just don't know how else to learn what your feeling, except to assume that your situation may be different but your feelings similar to mine.
It's sexism. The problem was he is male.
You're so close. There's just a bit further to go and you won't be comparing losing your privilege to being discriminated against.
Can you point out which privilege he is losing (that everyone shouldn't have)?
(nope)
The rare wackadoodles proposing an asexual lesbian commune are simply not who most people are talking about, when they mention feminism. Those loons can wear the label. Nobody can stop them. But they're not relevant.
Feminism is gender egalitarianism with an archaic name. When people denounce self-proclaimed feminists who don't agree with that, it's not fallacious bickering, it's active gatekeeping, and it's fucking important. Some clear boundaries are necessary for a movement demanding systemic change. Any political label can have a complicated history, and it's not somehow a contradiction to point to the fringe weirdos and say they were just plain wrong.
As a man, I don't even like men. So I wouldn't blame anyone for hating them. As a whole we're right bastards.
Are we though? Are we bastards, or is that a product of the environment, the society, we've been born into? Is there something specific to men that makes them somehow evil, aggressive, bad, whatever word you want to use to describe them? Are there no good men? If there are, how do we explain them?
I believe there are good men. The existence of good men means there isn't something inherent to man that makes one not good. So again, why are men right bastards?
It's a self feeding loop. Men have to be bastards because men are bastards, and only bastards get ahead. Or, we can accept that, regardless of these arbitrary lines and divisions, each human is an individual, capable of acts of good, evil, and everything in-between.
You're being downvoted, but even though most wouldn't express it explicitly, men consistently demonstrate a very similar danger response to other men as women.