this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2023
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The real issue nowadays is the software, although this is still a good step.
But being stuck with no software updates after 2-4 years still renders them unusable (when also locked down).
They should be forced to provide open bootloaders, firmware and kernel drivers once the devices reach end of life. Maybe even include hardware details and schematics, etc. for full repairability.
The efforts of devices like the Framework laptop and Steam Deck should be commonplace. It's insane we put some corporation's patents and trade secrets above the environment.
While they have other not-friendly practices, Apple does well on the software side. The iPhone 8, going on 6 years old this September, is still running the latest version of iOS.
I've been away from Android for a while now. Is it still the case that there is a lot of fragmentation and updates end prematurely? Or is there another OS / software you're thinking about?
Android/Google tried to make this a bit easier through Project Treble, which is like a "core" of android that can be easily updated, then vendors build their modifications on top of it. It's pretty widely adopted now, but that doesn't stop companies from deciding they don't want to support hardware from three years ago even though it is still compatible with the latest Android core.
Iirc Samsung is 5 years security, 4 years os updates. Pixel line is 5 years security, 3 years os.
But Samsung releases just before a new Android version comes out, so phones launched in the same year get the same last update
I could apply that argument to Pixels. S23 has been available since February, and the Pixel 8 still hasn't been released. Right now, both are running Android 13, yet the Samsung is getting an extra OS update
Fairphone 3 is aiming at 7 years on Android https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/fairphone-3-gets-seven-years-of-updates-besting-every-other-android-oem/
If you don't buy no-name brand phones, you will get at least one major update. Even chinese brands such as xiaomi will provide updates. You can also install generic LineageOS image if your phone can be unlocked some way, official or not. It works on most devices.
But many smart TVs become useless very quick. When I was using 2015 phone in 2020, TV newer than that already loaded the lightweight Google version for unsupported browsers and vast majority sites/apps became unavailable. It used browser that was already 2 years old when it was released and never released an update to it. But when there was root vulnerability, they released a fix after long time of being basically unsupported.
oh man, I’d kill to know how to hack my fucking samsung tv. I don’t use it’s useless “business” smart functions, but every time i turn it on it nags me with that terrible menu. and there’s no way to turn it off because they completely fucked it up by pushing ads through that menu.
Always buy the "smarts" as a separate device (a media player or smartbox).
Having the product lifecycle and even user requirements of a fast-changing and cheap (and always getting cheaper) element selected on the basis of computing performace and software like the "smart" media player, to those of a much slower changing and vastly more expensive element selected on the basis of size and visual criteria (the actual display) hard-linked isn't really a wise purchasing decision - it means that in a few years you're pretty much guaranteed to end up with either a device that can't support the latest software and hence has sub-standard functionality or paying a "full TV" price because you need to upgrade just that subset of functionality, something which if bought separatelly you could otherwise upgrade for less than 100 bucks.
The thing with older iPhones, running new iOSes, is that they're intentionally slowed down (by the software) or as I'd like to call it, underclocked. That also could render them useless, even with new iOS, and even if there were removable batteries.
The intentional slowdown was directly related to battery life. They got sued over it. But if you put in a new battery, performance returns to previous levels.
Apple even tells you in your battery info settings page whether you are running with "Peak Performance Capability".
Apple is one of the worst offenders. When they sunset a device they force blanket app incompatibility on it, rendering it unusable. It can be a perfectly good device, fully working, but all apps (already installed apps too!) will start suddenly requiring a new iOS version which isn't available for that device.
It’s up to individual developers what the minimum OS version they support for their app is. If you have previously downloaded an app and the minimum version is raised above the version you are running on your device then you can still download the most recent version that supports your device
Yeah, what happens is that it takes effort to keep supporting multiple OS versions. iOS has a history of users being like 90% on the newest OS every time there’s a major update, so a lot of companies only support one previous version beyond the current.
Android is a different matter. It has always been a fragmented mess and new OS adoption has always been very slow (it’s faster nowadays though). Because of that Google maintains a set of libraries that make sure Android features work the same way across multiple versions, which eases the burden on developers.
The problem is all of these apps are using proprietary APIs to communicate to centralized backends, which then deprecate the APIs and the old versions cease to work. Back when software was largely communicating over standardized protocols it was feasible to run an old version of software for years after it had been stopped being maintained, but protocols don't make money, APIs do.
But why should I have to have downloaded the app previously? The app version for the previous OS version was already published at some point. It's definitely available and it would definitely work on the device. All they have to do is allow you do install it. But they explicitly refuse so you'll buy a new device. Which is forced obsolescence by definition.
I developed and shipped iOS apps, and what you wrote is actually incorrect.
Apple does not allow developers to put on the app store applications built targetting an iOS version below a certain point.
Also Apple controls the build environment for applications which are listed on the App Store: you have to build and push the app for the store on Xcode (contractually and enforced cryptograhically) and it even has to be running on a Mac computer (contractually).
So it's not up to individual developers what the minimum OS version they support for their app, at least not if they want to be able to distribute it via the App Store (which is the only way they can be distributed for non-rooted phones).
Absolutelly, lots of devs just go along with the Xcode defaults (which by the way, are a soft push by Apple) and build against a very recent iOS version, but those who want to support really old iPhones aren't allowed to.
By “worst offenders” do you mean “industry leading”?
Lol only for smartphones, and I don't think that's something to be proud of. When it comes to computers, you'll get 10+ years out of Windows and basically indefinite from any major Linux distro. A Mac will only get 5-8 years of updates and it's a huge issue because things like your browser won't be maintained either, which makes the computer quickly become useless. Hell Apple actually charges $20 just to install old versions of macOS for old hardware.
Pretty damn sad that people have set the bar on the floor for phones
Ok chief.
Drop a look at FairPhone, they provide 7 years software support for their devices and make sure all the materials are fairly sourced. No Apple-like child labor and suicide workers.
only 2 models and the "cheap" one is more than I paid for the last two phones I had, combined. what percentage of the market do they have?
I am not sure about the percentage of the market. It's a standard Android without the bloat so compatibility is there. Price is not that expensive when compared to industry leaders but even if you do consider it expensive that's the reality of the matter when you want to buy a device which is made with materials whose production didn't exploit child labor or someone's misery.
Company has a fairly clear goal and is focused towards that. They want to reduce waste by allowing device to be disassembled and repaired at home, while at the same time providing spare parts years after device production has ended. And along the way make sure materials and labor are all fair trade and fair employment. Take a look at their "our mission" and "our impact" pages. They list every supplier for each of the parts and materials. They even offer recycling your old devices for you.
There are open source operating systems that are Android based which will update to the latest versions and fix bugs and suchwell beyond the manufacturer's support, lineageOS for example.
A tricky part is that some apps detect an unlocked bootloader and brick themselves, which effectively makes it impossible to use those apps on such devices. And while I don't think rooting is a strict requirement for installing LineageOS based off a quick search, rooting also has this problem (and at least last time I installed a custom OS many years ago, I recall either having to root or thinking I had to root).
Your information is a few years outdated. lineageOS neither comes rooted, nor does it offer a native way to root anymore. Magisk became a thing with a whole community around it. It's an unlocked bootloader hider, root manager (and hider), and a system patcher, all wrapped up in one tool.
With Magisk, you give root access to the apps that need it, hide root ability from apps that require non-root devices (those apps do that by pretending to need root). Also, the Magisk app can rename itself, which is important as some apps check against the name itself.
The future challenge is with Google trying to force hardware identification (Apple style). I have not been following developments regarding that though, since as others mentioned, my X years old phone is still serving me perfectly, and I have no intention to upgrade any time soon.
There are ways to hide the root part to apps. Im so used to a rooted phone that i would not do otherwise. Also im using a phone from 2016 that i bought used and im on android 13
Assuming someone makes a ROM for your device. This is often the case if you go with one of the most popular models but less popular devices might simply see no development effort – if the developers can even get their hands on the drivers and other necessary parts to build Android for that device.
It'd be great if manufacturers had to release all of the stuff necessary to run AOSP on their devices but I doubt it's going to happen.
One step at a time, easy to get people behind something like batteries, as it's a common point of failure on phones. Then we go after their shitty software practices.
Also sucks because, since they don't update the software. Then they develop always on the recent or latest hardware (which requires less optimizations) and we end up always stuck in terms of performance and battery life.
How would you propose it?
You wouldn't be able to say "smartphones" as not all run Android obviously. Limiting legislation to Android specifically would make no sense either, OEMs may just do hard forks then (ahem, HarmonyOS).
Why not force Apple too?
I would like it, but I feel that it would be harder to convince legislators that it is an actually practical use case.
Because besides Android and iOS, there is also for example Tizen and KaiOS. Is there a market for custom software for those devices? And if not, why require it?
Well, these goals are about sustainability of batteries and electric related "stuff" in general not just phones. Phone affect us the most in terms of everyday life and addiction but in terms of long term impact to the environment and what we need to focus on the most that's a harder nut to crack b/c we don't know how growth will happen moving forward. So I think this makes sense to have a broad/sweeping legislation that covers lots of mediums and has different targets depending on the size/usage of the "thing". Obviously removing a battery from a car is not the same thing (in terms of complexity or even 'need') as removing a battery from an electric scooter.