this post was submitted on 09 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 39 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Drones currently outpace their countermeasurs. This will definitely not be a thing forever. I think the effectiveness of cheap drones will go down as be countermeasures are invented.

We already see new very effective military drone jammers starting to come out

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago (19 children)

Onboard AI guidance is not difficult.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Both of you are right.

It's difficult, but how difficult depends on the task you set. If the task is "maintain manually initiated target lock on a clearly defined object on an empty field, despite the communications link breaking for 10 seconds" -> it is "give a team of coders half a year" difficult. It's been solved before, the solution just needs re-inventing and porting to a different platform.

If it's "identify whether an object is military, whether it is frienly or hostile, consider if it's worth attacking, and attack a camouflaged target in a dense forest", then it's currently not worth trying.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

That was a good guess but unfortunately it is just difficult even in the scenario you proposed

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

Realtime person detection and following it with a drone? Difficult for me, certainly, but there are enough people out there who have done it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I will be very suprised if this isn't already happening.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's one thing detecting a person with machine learning in a test and an actual soldier with camouflage in a very imperfect environment. Also good luck telling friend from foe from civilian.

This has all sorts of problems while making the whole system more complicated and prone to issues. Not the mention moral questions of autonomous weapons. I have no doubt it will happen but not yet, not here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

Why would the drone differentiate an armed person from a civilian? I mean, you’ll be asking to separate out children next, at that rate!

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago

I saw a YouTube clip explaining that they use a secondary drone to boost the signal to get around some of the jamming.

The game of cat and mouse continues.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (11 children)

The only reliable counter to a drone is likely another drone.

I suspect Peter F Hamilton got it close, in the Confederation series, with WASPs. They are space based weapon platforms. They carry a mix of offensive and defensive subsystems, and operate with swarm logic.

I could easily see a larger drone carrying a swarm of 1 shot micro drones. When close, some would be sacrificed to get better sensor data, others would go on the attack. Conversely, a defensive target would launch their own swarm. It's goal would be to stop the attackers getting a good shot on a high value target. It might also counterattack, either against the mother ship drone, or backtracking to find the launch site.

Jamming would also be part of this. A jammer could easily cut off the swarm from external data sources. Live satellite or remote surveillance systems would be cut. Point to point lasers are far harder, as are burst transmissions. Local sensor drones could easily punch short range data back, or paint targets, until they are destroyed by defensive systems.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7ym1zkda8

Anti-air guns are the countermeasure. RADAR good enough to detect drones + an aimbot and programmable air-burst round to "shotgun" your pellets to damage those soft plastic bits.

We're going back to WW2 tech. AA guns were considered obsolete because Helicopters + Missiles had more range. But now we need to build cheaper AA Guns for the anti-drone role.

AA Guns are also useful vs infantry, so in an infantry vs infantry fight, having an AA Gun platform will be useful even without any drones around. Airburst and rapid fire is always useful, and I expect the computers that make RADAR possible will be far cheaper today than decades past.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (14 children)

They may both have a role.

If you know that a given point is at risk of attack, using a static defense like AA guns is practical. Say you have some sort of specific, high-value target that you can put AA guns around. That may be a very sensible thing to do.

But the problem, if you intend to rely only on those, is that there is then a concentration of force issue. The attacker can choose which point to attack; they get the initiative.

Say you're trying to defend against something like a Shahed-136. It can hit pretty much anywhere in Ukraine. You can't stick an AA gun on everything that Russia might consider trading a Shahed-136 for.

But, okay, say you try to go big with static defenses. Let's say that you can obtain and pony up the resources to hypothetically stick an AA gun at every single point along the front line and border, and that your AA gun has the altitude to hit a drone. You have an unbroken line of engagement envelope all around a country. That'd be an extraordinary expenditure, but it could hypothetically be done. So a drone has to fly through defended airspace. The problem is that if the other guy expends an equivalent amount of resources, he can buy a shit-ton of drones and fly them all through a single gun's engagement envelope. Even if he doesn't even bother to try to attack the antiaircraft gun, your gun defenses are just going to get overwhelmed, because all of the attacker's resources are engaged, whereas the vast bulk of the defender's resources are not in the fight. Maybe you hit a tiny percentage of drones, but the rest are going to be able to simply fly through.

The problem is that the cost of static defenses in that scenario grows at something like the square of the scale of the air conflict -- you have to have enough static defenses to counter all of the attacker's aircraft, and pre-place those defenses at all points that might be attacked, whereas the cost of the attack grows only linearly. It's cost-effective to use static defenses only if the attacker is compelled to attack a limited number of points.

If that's not the case, then using some form of mobile defense is more important -- say, I don't know, you have a fleet of gun-armed, jet-powered counter-UAS UASes. Dollar-for-dollar, they might not be as effective as a static gun. But...you can route most or all of them in to meet any given attack.

The spot where we intend to fight must not be made known; for then the enemy will have to prepare against a possible attack at several different points; and his forces being thus distributed in many directions, the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will be proportionately few.

For should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear, he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.

Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us.

Knowing the place and the time of the coming battle, we may concentrate from the greatest distances in order to fight.

But if neither time nor place be known, then the left wing will be impotent to succor the right, the right equally impotent to succor the left, the van unable to relieve the rear, or the rear to support the van. How much more so if the furthest portions of the army are anything under a hundred LI apart, and even the nearest are separated by several LI!

-- Sun Tzu, The Art of War, ~400 BC

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Say you’re trying to defend against something like a Shahed-136. It can hit pretty much anywhere in Ukraine. You can’t stick an AA gun on everything that Russia might consider trading a Shahed-136 for.

As far as I know, the routine in the current war is - the AA gun is on a truck that moves 80 km/h, the drone comes in slower than 300 km/h, one or multiple truck crews position themselves on likely vantage points for intercepting, and the rest is luck.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

There are in fact a huge number of reliable counters to drones, including but not limited to anti-aircraft gun systems, anti-aircraft lasers, RF jamming devices (especially effective against cheap/makeshift drones), and several more. Drones are currently an emergent threat without a robust countermeasure scheme, but given their massive role in the Ukraine war that is not going to go unaddressed for long. From a purely mechanical standpoint, small drone munitions are also physically very vulnerable, making them readily destroyed by anti-air autocannon fire or even laser weapons if you assume RF jamming will not solve the problem.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago

Between GPS (jammable but likely gets you into the target area), dead reckoning, optical flow sensors and increasingly impressive onboard camera processing, RF jamming will soon be irrelevant.

Almost a decade ago I was flying agricultural mapping missions that were 99% autonomous, and the parts that weren't were problems a military drone doesn't have (soft launch and landing)

The clear counter is autocannons, likely fully automated themselves to manage large swarms. The other would be cheap anti-drone missiles that either are basically a drone themselves or a glorified model rocket. Possibly tiny, cheap and fast interceptors launched from fixed-wing drones. The weak point of drones is literally their physical weakness.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

It's worth noting we are at the start of an arms race. It will iterate all over the place.

For example, smoke and chaff deploying drones would make defensive fire harder. Anti air can be either baited (and so depleted) or rushed. Lasers can be shielded against, at least for a time. Jamming can be countered with line of site communications.

In turn, each of these can be countered.

A key thing of note is that your solutions are heavy. Fine for defending a static target, but problematic when dealing with defending a mobile unit etc infantry of transports. In those situations an extremely rapid, focused highly dynamic response would be required. The obvious way to deploy those fast enough is to have them automated and airborne, aka a drone swarm.

I might be completely wrong, current drone warfare is akin to the invention of the smoothbore musket. How it will develop remains to be seen (for better or for worse).

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Jammers only work against remote controlled drones. Autonomous ones have no such issue. And jammers are never a problem against civilians, which tech like this will eventually be used on.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

That's only one example