this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
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At the same time capitalism has built almost everything we have.
That's a pretty hot take saying that on the internet considering the Internet got its start as a government program. Hell, a lot of the fiber in the US was done through corporate welfare programs. A lot of rural places wouldn't even have Internet if it weren't for our taxes going to the common good (like socialism!). Let's not forget all the things that came out of NASA and government funded universities.
He'll, I like a bit of capitalism. A well regulated market that promotes competition can be fantastic. But to say almost everything came from capitalism is either ignorant, willfully stupid, or so full of propaganda that you can't possibly be a functional adult.
Yeah it’s obviously as much of a hot take as it is to say “capitalism destroys everything”, which is what I was responding to.
I’ve grown up in a well regulated market economy, probably one of those countries the American right wing would call communist because, hey, you get a free education and health care, so I’ll be the first to acknowledge the role of the state.
The problem with most of online is that it’s seen through American lenses. When most people say communism they mean free healthcare and when most people say capitalism, they mean robber-baron free-wheeling markets without unions where cash is king and lobbyist are seen as a healthy part of government.
I’d like to be someplace in the middle please.
But bear in mind I was reacting to someone saying “capitalism destroys everything” and I mean, for Darwin’s sake, look around you. Almost everything I can see and touch has been delivered by a for-profit business operating in a capitalist society (one that for me has always, and should always, be well regulated).
I’m 46, married for 16 years, 4 kids and held a steady job since 18. I’ll leave it with you to decide if that’s a functioning adult or not. But thanks for getting personal, that really elevated the debate.
If you don't want it to get personal then don't fight common Lemmy hyperbole with what is known to be a talking point of the "everything that I don't like is communism" dude bros.
Hell , I agree with everything you said. I like what you said. Seeing someone with my exact views that comes from a place where it happens warms the cockles of my heart. Maybe in the sub cockles. Maybe in the liver, maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon, I don't know.
Maybe I'm a little sensitive because I live in a place where what you said is the lie we're told every day. I watch the kind of people who say it and wonder when they're going back to jail for meth or stealing a car. I go back to my hometown and watch the people there say that through their single tooth and really believe it. They can't get better mouth bone care because they can't afford it, but they're sure robber barons will fix it.
So if I came off as an ass, I apologize. I deal with those people every fucking day of my life and have for over 4 decades.
There's a couple ways to interpret these statements.
Are you talking about innovation, progress, invention? Realistically, no. Occasionally capitalists put enough resources in the right hands that somebody working under capitalists manages to invent something good, but most real innovation doesn't happen without government funding. Capitalists are very hesitant to risk their capital on the kind of critical R&D that is necessary to make progress. Even when it happens under capitalism, there's no reason to think that capitalist control of the market caused it to happen - any system that gives creative people the time and resources to work on things will have as good results, at least, and it's easy to construct a system that gives that time and resources to more creative people, with fewer bosses interfering and squashing anything that's not seen as profitable. Capitalism is, though, very good at capturing and controlling innovation, sometimes even just killing existing innovations outright - see "embrace, extend extinguish".
Are you talking about manufacture and delivery of final products? Sure, under capitalist systems, of course it's all done by capitalism, as other options aren't available, or at least, aren't given any room. If somebody builds a fence around the lake that everyone fishes in, and takes over the fish and sells them to people who used to catch their own, do you praise that person for providing fish? Do you think landlords are providing housing?
Capitalism isn't just commerce. Capitalism is an antidemocratic economic trait, where the production and distribution of goods, services, and information is controlled by unelected, private owners of capital. Does it "destroy everything we build" as the person you were replying to said? No, not everything, but it does destroy a lot, and control and pervert most of what's left.
Free Software is literally communist.
Yes and I’m all for it.
It doesn’t change the core of my argument, which is to resist a comment saying “capitalism destroys everything we’ve built”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom
I will admit I was being rather hyperbolic - capitalism isn't all evil... but our current brand of capitalism is evil as fuck.
Who’s “our”? If you mean the American brand of capitalism, oh yes, that’s not a society I would prefer to live in.
I'd probably generalize it to "western" but yea - the modern greed driven society that America loves.