this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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I've seen a lot of comments suggesting Threads should be pre-emptively defederated by Lemmy/kbin instances if it tries to join us. I'm a bit confused what the problem would be. When Meta does its usual corporate bullshit over at Threads, how would that hurt a user or community based on Lemmy.world? If anything, wouldn't it give the fediverse a boost if Threads users start discovering communities outside of Meta's control?

I presume I'm missing something, as you can probably tell I don't fully understand how Lemmy, Threads or federation all work.

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[–] [email protected] 226 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

There is a known strategy called EEE (Embrace, extend, and extinguish).

First, they embrace the open web. Millions of people who never would've joined the Fediverse (and, probably, don't even know what the Fediverse is) flock to Threads and start to interact with us.

Then, they extend the open web, adding features to Threads that aren't compatible with our servers. People on Threads don't understand what's wrong with our server (even though it's Threads that's the source of incompatibility).

Finally, they decide they're "having trouble maintaining compatibility with third party servers" and start to break off from us, leaving us with no way to interact with our new friends. Unless, of course, we make a free Threads account...

Google Talk is perhaps the most relevant example of this. Here's more details.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago

Great article. It's pretty obvious to me now that the Fediverse should have room to grow on it's own naturally. It's probably in the best interest to block any massive corporate entity from joining in and swallowing it whole.

It's interesting seeing how fast it's already growing due to mega corporate incompetence, and I think the sheer desire to escape that landscape is driving growth now and we should nurture that as long as possible.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's a great article, thanks for sharing

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Anything from meta or threads or instagram needs to be permabanned from our network. ban them NOW.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago

Wow, this is crucial reading. Previously I was basing my dislike for Threads federation because Meta but this has refined my overall stand greatly. Thanks for this.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

This part:

Email protocols: Microsoft supported POP3, IMAP, and SMTP email protocols in their Microsoft Outlook email client. At the same time, they developed their own email protocol, MAPI, which has since been documented but is largely unused by third parties. Microsoft has announced that they would end support for basic authentication access to Exchange Online APIs for Office 365 customers, which disables most use of IMAP or POP3 and requires significant upgrades to applications in order to continue to use those protocols;[23] some customers have responded by simply shutting off older protocols.

From the EEE wikipedia page has given me PTSD.

I was required to implement this (IMAP with OAuth2) "simple change" but for a server backend service that checked an inbox to perform certain actions. That was certainly fun. In the end the solution wasn't that difficult, but finding it and working it into legacy code...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The XMPP stories/comparisons are such bullshit, imho.

Sure, both Google and Facebook both used XMPP for a while (even at the same time, so you could message someone from Google on Facebook), but XMPP was an unpopular niche protocol before that and it's still the same today. I used to be an uber (foss) nerd at the time but even for me the appeal was close to zero - although I've tried it several times.

I've also literally never heard of anyone signing up for Google or Facebook due to their alleged XMPP 3E strategy. Google Mail was already the most popular and most hyped mail provider and Facebook was at its height as the defacto quasi-monopolist social network as well - everyone who was willing to sign up with them had already long done so.

(Funnily enough, the Cisco in-house messaging and video calling solution we use at my work, through which we also receive landline calls, is still running on XMPP to this day, so I sorta became a XMPP user after all...except I haven't started this software in 10 months because fuck landline calls and we have better alternatives for chatting.)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

You are absolutely right. Really getting tired of that one post about how to destroy the Fediverse. XMPP and lemmy/kbin comparison are not equivalent. XMPP didn't have enough users to sustain themselves in the first place. Also google tried the same with AMP and failed.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

(Funnily enough, the Cisco in-house messaging and video calling solution we use at my work, through which we also receive landline calls, is still running on XMPP to this day, so I sorta became a XMPP user after all…except I haven’t started this software in 10 months because fuck landline calls and we have better alternatives for chatting.)

XMPP is still chugging along on the backends of stuff like that. I'm not sure but I think WhatsApp has some XMPP in it still.

The most ironic one though is Jitsi, which is what Matrix uses/used (until they started working on Element Calls) to do video calls.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Yup, and I guess XMPP is fine for Cisco's solution or Jitsi. But XMPP has always be used in a rather centralized way, the feature to talk to users on other services was always niche. And this centralized way has survived, where XMPP is used among users on the same server. Which is alright, but don't tell me Google/Facebook killed XMPP.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The less innovation (avatars!), the harder it seems to justify the breakoff. 'd seek opinion of ActivityPub dev, is it easy to break the twitter era stuff by adding (what?) new feature