this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2023
184 points (98.4% liked)

Asklemmy

43395 readers
1244 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy 🔍

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Personally I think not having karma limits is nice currently! I understand why they were used but grinding karma as a lurker on reddit was frustrating.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Censorship. All the major subreddits became political echo-chambers. Reddit was founded on free speech and open discourse, especially when it was really uncomfortable. I'd love to see the same for Lemmy. Over the years I've seen authoritarianism creep into the moderation policies of most major subreddits. Today, even posting on the wrong subreddit is grounds for being banned from dozens of major subreddits. Even having a polite disagreement about, for example, anything to do with "trans," is grounds for being banned.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So the one thing on Reddit that you wish to leave behind is mods deleting transphobic comments? Lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

So the one thing on Reddit that you wish to leave behind is mods deleting transphobic comments? Lol

Would you please quote where I wrote that?

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm sorry I'm not sure how else to describe it. Trans people are those who believe their sex doesn't match how they feel inside.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I am aware of the concept of being transgender I am just wondering what your "polite disagreements" are with it

[–] sleepyTonia 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'd say that a fairly debated topic related to transgender people, which isn't just transphobes attacking people trying to live their own life, is the presence of transgender athletes in competitions. Some will take it as a personal attack whether you take a side or sit on the fence. I'm not looking to start that conversation here, but yeah. It's definitely possible to hold a polite conversation about this while disagreeing on parts of the question. In a healthy space.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (13 children)

I think that after HRT the difference is not that big. Trans athletes may even be at the disadvantage since there are some cis woman that have higher than average amount of testosterone.

In the long shot I think it would be for the best to abolish gender based separation altogether and replace it with something more like weight categories.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (8 children)

the presence of transgender athletes in competitions

I disagree, that isn't a "polite disagreement" and is, absolutely, "just transphobes attacking people trying to live their own life" as you put it. Every time that "Argument" happens it's openly done in biologically unfounded ways by people who simply don't understand how our bodies actually work- yet those arguments get mass upvoted by people who also don't understand how biology actually works and who believe that trans athletes get some insane, unfair advantage.

If you want to pass laws to restrict trans people from sports, then you want to pass laws to discriminate against trans people. That's not really up for debate IMO, it's a straight up fact; it's what you're doing when you advocate for laws that are not founded in science, that are specifically targeting a tiny minority for the chance that one of that tiny minority might beat cis athletes in an "unfair" way, you're advocating for bigoted laws.

Such arguments are also inevietably filled with people misgendering trans people, deliberately calling trans women "men" and hiding behind the "I'm talking about biology" argument to do so.

Replace the word "trans" with "black" and you'll find that people are making literally identical arguments to those against desegregating professional sports leagues 80 years ago. Literally word for word.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The thing I don't understand around it is that the people who are making the argument "trans people shouldn't be able to participate in sports" are usually also people who are not interested in the sport at all. As in are they upset because someone on the telly told them to, but they really don't care about the sport except in this very niche aspect which impacts a very slight minority of participants. I mean would half the US public be very interested in the deep technicalities of competitive high-school running?

Same with HRT. Why do I even have to know about it? It's a niche medical treatment for a comparatively small amount of people suffering from some very specific conditions. I can barely understand what the difference is between ibuprofen and paracetamol, and I'm sure most people are even less informed. Why is it not the sole interest of people affected by gender dysphoria (IDK if I'm even spelling or saying it right, sorry for my ignorance), and their doctors?

The thing that actually grinds my gears is that this culture war stuff takes over places and trans people have to get defensive over their existence, and a forum on fricking Bionicle gets full of trans memes. Don't get me wrong, if you're a trans person, or a Zulu, or IDK what niche minority, and you've made a Bionicle that uniquely represents you, I'm going to upvote that shit so hard since it's frickin awesome. But having the whole place be full of low effort "trans people are people" memes is about as funny or interesting as having the whole place full of "the sky is blue" memes.

People are getting outraged about what some socially disadvantaged minority is doing with their lives instead of actually contributing to society, because some idiotic grifter TV host told them to. Fucking lemmings.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] sleepyTonia 1 points 1 year ago

All good! Sorry for the paragraph. I'm just bad a writing short messages… 😅

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are you genuinely interested or just looking to start a fight? I know recreational outrage is a thing on Reddit and I had hoped to leave it there.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective and why it was a point of contention

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (7 children)

No worries. Sorry for being defensive. I’ve received death threats before so you can imagine my reticence to speak freely.

Forgive the brevity. The topic is quite personal to me. I had a trans person in my family until recently. They committed suicide. I took it upon myself to research the topic to the best of my abilities. My current stance is that, while I support the right for adults to do with their body as they wish, I do not support the practise of transitioning children; be it medically or socially. In all my research I couldn’t find a single study, anywhere, demonstrating an objective quality of life improvement. These would be measurable metrics like:

  • Life expectancy.
  • Suicide rate.
  • Rates of addiction.
  • Health outcomes such as reduced rates of obesity and heart attacks.
  • Rates of crime.
  • Rates of homelessness.
  • Rates of victimisation (rape, assault, etc.).
  • Income.
  • Wealth.

It’s not for lack of trying, either. I’ve never seen so much funding go to any single topic in academia. Given this lack of evidence, researchers turned to subjective measures of improvement. The primary being “suicidality.” They ask subjects how they feel about suicide. This is an effective proxy for, “are you happy with the major medical procedure you just asked for?” Unsurprisingly, this is subject to enormous bias.

Instead, I found evidence that not transitioning is a much better, much more effective treatment for children. This study found that only 37% of children still identified as dysphoric five years later. This study found that 88% had desisted (they were no longer dysphoric). This mirrors other historical research into various areas of child psychology. Children frequently change identity and beliefs around identity.

The primary arguments appear to be, a) if we don’t transition children, they will commit suicide. As above, I believe this is false. The second premise is, b) puberty blockers are completely reversible. This isn’t true either. These are the expected side effects of puberty blockers:

Common side effects of the GnRH agonists and antagonists include symptoms of hypogonadism such as hot flashes, gynecomastia, fatigue, weight gain, fluid retention, erectile dysfunction and decreased libido. Long term therapy can result in metabolic abnormalities, weight gain, worsening of diabetes and osteoporosis. Rare, but potentially serious adverse events include transient worsening of prostate cancer due to surge in testosterone with initial injection of GnRH agonists and pituitary apoplexy in patients with pituitary adenoma. Single instances of clinically apparent liver injury have been reported with some GnRH agonists (histrelin, goserelin), but the reports were not very convincing. There is no evidence to indicate that there is cross sensitivity to liver injury among the various GnRH analogues despite their similarity in structure. There is also a report that GnRH agonists used in the treatment of advanced prostate cancer may increase the risk of heart problems by 30%.

Osteoporosis and diabetes are absolutely life altering. Sweden went all-in on "temporary" puberty blockers for gender affirming care until children started experiencing life-long injuries. They are now effectively banned for gender affirming care for children.

In one particularly shocking case, a girl who wanted to become a boy began taking hormone-blocking drugs at just 11-years-old. Almost five years after the treatment began, the puberty-pausing drugs induced osteoporosis and permanently damaged the teen’s vertebrae, severely limiting the teen’s mobility.

“When we asked him regularly how his back felt, he said: ‘I’m in pain all the time’,” she added.

Further, there is a growing body of evidence to show high risk of infertility after prolonged use of these drugs.

And these are just the dangerous irreversible side effects. The cosmetic side effects are devastating, and include men with child-sized penises and testicles, and women without breasts. This is one such case. The teenager had taken puberty blockers, resulting in a small penis. With insufficient penile tissue, doctors attempted to remove and use part of his colon to create a fake vagina. He died less than a day later from complications.

Ultimately, I believe I am very open to evidence. I have reached my position precisely by pouring over research. I am open to honest discussion and debate. I don't belittle or minimise anyone's experiences or beliefs. I simply want the best outcomes for children. For this opinion, I have been banned on many subreddits. I have been sent death threats. I have been called every disgusting name in the dictionary, and then more. I hope that Lemmy is a place which allows respectful discussion.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

What the hell is this? Trans person here. This is not the thread to start concern trolling about trans issues. If you really want a space to talk freely about your concerns you can start a community or even your own instance.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

@[email protected] this is exactly why tone policing is bullshit moderation policy.

Your modteam is allowing this transphobic screed to exist, and has in fact unbanned the user that posted it despite the very very obvious fact that they are a transphobe doing concern-trolling and "just asking questions" style veiled bigotry, while simultaneously banning everyone that has reacted to their behaviour by rightfully calling them the names they deserve to be called.

This policymaking is what results in people in the left calling someone a terf or a fascist getting banned while the fascists and terfs roam free. The site will be taken over by this and the left will slowly be banned and pushed out by it. The fact that the team can't seem to get into their heads that trans people might get a little fucking heated when bigots are allowed to exist and clearly defended by some of the incompetent members the modteam is another part of the problem.

You should get some trans people on your team to keep the rest of the idiots on it making these shit decisions in check. This nerd should absolutely be rebanned and every other person that copped a ban over this shit should be unbanned.

Demanding that lgbt people, racial groups and the lower classes engage with their oppressors in a suitable “tone” without ever getting heated is unrealistic. The outcome of tone policing is that the oppressed get banned from spaces when they don’t behave with the right tone when discussing their oppression while those doing the oppressing (this fucker) come to dominate it more and more. The oppressed come to be alienated by it (leaving the space as a result) while the oppressors come to be empowered by it. Tone policing should NEVER come before principle and protection of the marginalized.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

This is pure comedy ✌

Others please note I did not see the above message, but instead it was already removed by a moderator.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

In all my research I couldn’t find a single study, anywhere, demonstrating an objective quality of life improvement.

You're saying you haven't found any evidence and that proves there isn't improvement but it's impossible for any properly done study to prove any changes to those categories. The simple reason is there is no environment that has existed for long enough to do a comparison. It's impossible to conduct a proper study on the life expectancy of trans people if they transition at 12 years old or 20 years old because the treatments have not been around long enough and people can live a long time. Even a study that tracks suicide rates over 5 years based on treatment type takes much more than 5 years.

The only studies that can be done need to use historic data and we can't change the past plus retroactive comparisons are super dicey and very prone to bias. Remember how dead patients were added post-moterm to that COVID trial published from Egypt which totally skewed the results? That study lead to large numbers of people taking ivermectin and fueled the antivax movement worldwide https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658

The absence of research studies can not be used to prove or disprove something and should not form your opinions based on this. As least people aren't trying and doing it poorly then people write catchy articles about it and it creates whole industries (I'm looking at you, nutritional science).

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Even having a polite disagreement about, for example, anything to do with “trans,” is grounds for being banned.

A subreddit I moderate, /r/moderatepolitics, has had to do a delicate balancing act around this. There are site-wide rules banning many statements around trans people, and the red lines are not well defined. Reddit's "Anti-Evil Operations" (site-wide moderation team) frequently swoops in and deletes comments that are offensive to trans people, but well within current political discourse in the US. That has undermined our mission of being a forum for diverse voices to hold productive but difficult discussions. At a certain point, we entirely banned the discussion of trans issues because one side was able to speak freely and the other side was walking on egg shells. I'm solidly pro-trans, but that's no way to have a conversation.

This likely was done to try to keep Reddit from becoming a cesspool like the "free speech" sites like Gab, but it has turned out to be a lazy way that short circuits necessary conversations.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is only one necessary converation around trans people, in which trans people say, Let us exist without being harassed or persecuted, and everyone else says, OK. Anything else is just allowing bigots a platform.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

I wish the world worked that way, but in practice there are just too many ignorant people out there. They can walk out their front door and talk to their neighbors who are more than willing to pass on the latest slander about trans people. Our sub's mission is to provide a space where they can try to pass on something resembling the latest slander and get push back. As-is, too much of the US is so segregated by ideology that people may not ever meet an out trans person. We want to foster those human-to-human connections instead of letting them rely on Tucker Carlson's latest Very Concerned mouth diarrhea.

Edit: I value safe spaces for their function as a reprieve for trans people, and I don't think every platform should provide a space for unrestricted speech. But at the same time, I think it's beneficial to have some spaces that require a bare minimum of good behavior so that society can talk about these topics and move forward into a better future. There's too much ignorance of trans people as-is.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Go back to reddit

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's the same here unfortunately.

It also sucks when you're not American, like Reddit auto-banned a load of Irish and Brits discussing stopping smoking due to the colloquial term there.

Unfortunately all these American-based websites really force the American views and positions on everyone.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Well that explains it. I'm not American either and I really feel like I'm being forced into their weird social war. I just want to talk about cool gadgets without some culture warrior banning me everywhere because I didn't show the requisite fealty to whatever the current thing is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah, one thing I hope to leave behind with Reddit is every major subreddit farming outrage w.r.t. American politics.

It just became exhausting and made me unsub from a lot of the big subreddits. So far, Lemmy has been quite positive! It's refreshing.

[–] sleepyTonia 1 points 1 year ago

You're not exactly bringing up cool gadgets at the moment, kid. You're deliberately poking a sensitive issue for attention. Waging that social war you speak of. Pretending like transgender rights are only an American issue is pretty darn comical of you when it's one of the political hot-topics in most occidental countries. As you know, or you, fellow "not American", wouldn't be bothered enough to dump that ^ wall of text up there.

Also seriously? Bringing up the dog whistle that is "HRT for children"? Doesn't happen and you damn well know it if you've read half as much as you're implying. Teenagers are sometimes allowed to take hormone blockers to delay puberty. This is risky, especially for AFAB youth, since taking hormone blockers basically puts them through menopause, hormonally speaking. Which is why in some places they can instead directly take hormones after being evaluated by psychologists, sexologists, you name it. And with their parents' consent. Not on a whim. Not for attention. Not to be 'trendy'.

Take all the time you want misrepresenting studies and articles, you're still not owed anyone's energy "debating" you. I already put way too much into writing this. It's not unfair censorship to shut down antisocial trolls who only want to argue in bad faith about the latest political issue. No matter the talking point, this hijacking of conversations doesn't lead to chill spaces. It's not fun. You're just being an asshole right now. Go be angry somewhere else, or have that "debate" in a relevant thread.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

No matter how politely stated your disagreement is, if it boils down to "I don't think I should have to respect trans people's identity"/"I don't think trans people should have rights" then it's transphobic and I'm 1000% fine with that being bannable

load more comments (2 replies)