this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2023
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That is the end goal of our movement though, the economic stage of "communism" will entail a horizontal structure of the society. Just because it's unimaginable now, doesn't mean it won't be after god knows how many years of socialism.
It is not.
It's not the end goal. The end goal is to free our creative labor for other things. There will still be administration though.
Absent powerful capitalist and colonial forces seeking to re-establish themselves, a late-stage Marxist-Leninist society would look approximately horizontal.
The only real hierarchical structures worth preserving are ones that follow from natural deviations in human capabilities and desires. Basically just deferring authority to subject matter experts and not letting 8 year olds determine they want candy for every meal.
Some Marxists argue that decentralized production leads to exchange which leads to commodity production.
This is a bad argument because there's lots of ways to move things that aren't exchange (Graeber lists a few in Dawn of Everything), but lots of Marxists make it.
and then marxists will have a refutation for that refutation, and it goes on and on and on
IRL frameworks will always have more viability than the theoretical, even if the theoretical is right its implementation must occur in order to actually approve it
needless to say i hope world socialism will have lots of variety in order to create the most effective economic system while being owned by the workers and not held back by previously necessary frameworks
Graeber is an anarchist and is not a legitimate source. He literally believes people are not conscious.
Hey, if you hate me so much you find my day old comments and troll post on them you should probably just block me
I don't hate you, though. I'm just replying 'cause it's in my Inbox.
what? when did graeber say this? legitimately interested.
It was in an interview, but I can't find it.
Anyway:
https://nonsite.org/back-to-work-review-of-david-graebers-bullshit-jobs/
Uh, no, there would stilll be leadership and administration.
I mean, communism is indistinguishable from what the anarchists want (stateless, classless society), the difference is that anarchists want to abolish the state right away, while communists think it will wither away with time, and that attempts to do away with it too soon will just fail
what tendency am I if i don't think it'll just wither away, but abolishing states while capitalist ones are still around (certainly not when they're hegemonic) isn't viable?
I don't think that exists but I also don't think it matters. Communist theorists tend to not talk that much about the actual communist stage of society because it's too far into the future to actually be rigorously described. Socialism is already possible given the current conditions, and it's the current political goal, so they focus on that instead of trying to guess how communism is going to work. The state going away comes from the analysis that states are tools of class suppression and that if there are no classes, the state loses its reason to exist.
There are lots of obsolete institutions that persist through their obsolescence. Institutions are self perpetuating. The state will have to be destroyed.
what i think they mean is that they will be taken apart naturally after we have effectively mobilized the working class
a politically educated working class is the best way to have a strong pace to communism
I think you agree with the private thoughts of most communists in leadership in AES states.
Uh, no, communism is not anarchy. Anarchists want no leaders and horizontality. Communists still want administration. This is how many MLs throughout history have understood it.
No, anarchists claim to be against unjust hierarchies, not hierarchies in general. A society with no leaders whatsoever is impossible.
That's not what other anarchists tell me. It would be nice if anarchists agreed on something.
I am not an anarchist, I'm a ML. But this is something that was stated by Bakunin on "What is Authority?" and then repeated/popularized by Chomsky. I never heard of anyone claiming to be against authority in general unless it was someone really wacky like Bataille or Sade. If we're going to critize other leftists, it should be based on what they actually believe and what their representative theorists have to say on the matter. We can't really base things like this on what random people believe, especially since a lot of people who claim to be Marxists on the internet are equally clueless about Marxism.
Doesn't matter. There's no one template for anarchism or anarchists, hence, they can believe anything.
I mean, you had a very different position on the matter 20 hours ago but I'll just disengage since it seems like you just want to have the last say in this.
I don't. You misunderstand me.
oh snap
You got me.