Asklemmy

If it wasn't for their response to the pandemic, I might be inclined to agree with you.

It is very hard to have rational disccussion when people disagree on the basic observable facts, ignore the "rules" of debate, and are struggling with critical thinking. You can meet difficult people on all the political spectrum, but certain idealogy attract more difficult people, and certain stuff mainstream conservatives believe right now has absolutely no basis in reality.

Except half od them are QAnon believers.

I have had plenty of conversations with people irl. Most of the them with people who are to the right of me on the political spectrum. What I found in the conversations that were fruitful, was that our disagreement on larger issues, such as economics or personal freedoms, tended to stem from disagreements on smaller issues. To paraphrase my friend, "We are using the same words, but they all mean different things." It seems to me that there are some elementary differences between progressives and conservatives that change how we rationalize the larger issues. That's how the two groups can, based on the same information, come to two different conclusions.

That being said though, I think Fox News and other conservative news channels have created information silos. Not everyone who is conservative has necessarily had access to the same body of facts and evidence that progressives have. I think a good portion of people who are stuck in those silos would change their views if they had a more balanced news diet.

You're not outright wrong, but it's really hard to have the rational discussion skills to cut through decades of propaganda. For the many deep in the right-ring bubble, brainwashing is a better term than mere propaganda.

Yeah except for the fact that they are causing very real damage to POC and LGBTQ people. So let's be very clear here. Conservatives are not intentionally hateful and can be nice and kind if you are a straight white Christian. If you aren't in the in group though they can and will turn on you even if they tolerate you. Because conservative ideology is one fundamentally founded on hate and oppression.

I was going to post my rant about conservatives as a top level comment, but I didn't think it was unpopular enough.

I agree with your central premise that there is a disconnect of understanding and perception between progressives and conservatives.

However, it's not that conservatives haven't heard a convincing argument, or something that accounts for their perspective. This is part of the fundamental disconnect, and you're an excellent example of why people don't know how to put things in a way others will understand.

Conservativism is not a principled ideology. It is the political justification of narcissism in every form. Conservatives like being conservative because it gives them a free pass to be selfish and egocentric in their political beliefs. There is no foundational value system or policy that is inherently conservative.

The conservative ideology defines the self and the other. Nothing else is fixed. Whatever is good for the self is good, and whatever is bad for the self is bad.

That's it, that explains every conservative position ever held by any conservative since the invention of conservativism in the 1800s. From Francois-Rene de Chateaubriand wanting to roll back many of the reforms of the French Revolution, to Donald Trump becoming the Messiah, conservatives identify the self, and then do anything to benefit the self. Granted, Francois-Rene was a much better writer, but he was no less inconsistent in his desire to promote ideologies that benefitted himself and his peers.

Conservatives will couch their positions as staunch defense of tradition, and general opposition to change for the sake of change, but that's window dressing. They don't believe in stoicism or absolutism or really anything they claim to believe. And that's why you cannot have a rational debate with a conservative. That's why you won't ever convince them to change their minds on a subject simply by pointing out flaws in their logic or perception.

The only method that has ever worked at getting a conservative to shift or compromise is by showing them how it will benefit them. Why is this policy good for the self? What value will they receive in exchange for easing up on their intransigence? If you can convince a conservative to abandon an ideological position, you can be sure it's because they believe the new position is better for them.

Look at any conservative leader in history, any political pundit, any legislator or writer or conservative iconoclast. Viewed through the lens of narcissism, their intentions, their hypocrisies, their inconsistencies, they are all laid bare. There is no deeper meaning, no mystery to why they have had sudden changes or seemingly flip flopped on an issue. It's not that complicated.

So no, it's not that people don't know how to have rational discussions these days. It's that conservativism is anathema to rational thought, and it always has been. It's a license to be as hateful or ignorant or selfish as you want to be, and you needn't worry about defending your positions from things like facts, or realty, or reason, because those are tools of the other. If the other opposes you, they are evil and their reality, their facts, their reason is equally evil. They don't need to be refuted, they need to be destroyed by any means necessary. The self is good, therefore anything the self needs to do to win is good. Lies, deception, personal attacks, intimidation, threats, violence, all of them are justified by the belief in the righteous self. There is no bar too low to be stooped under, no treachery too vile to be considered, no accusation too false to be levied. A conservative with scruples is a conservative unchallenged.

are usually open to rational discussion

Are they believers? If they are, your assertion is false.

Yeah this would have been believable 2-3 years ago but not post pandemic.