this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2024
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115
Who are the good guys in the Israel/Palestine conflict? (lemmy.world)
submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
274 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I genuinely do not know who the bad guys are. S lot of my leftist friends are against Israel, but from what I know Israel was attacked and is responding and trying to get their hostages back.

Enlighten me. Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?

And dumb it down for me, because apparently I'm an idiot.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

oh right, totally forgot about those poor people who lived and partied next to the concentration camp and then got either kidnapped by people who wanted to break out of the concentration camp or were killed by the IDF. let's all show a bit more empathy! 😥

[–] [email protected] -5 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

It's clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.

I'm arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don't have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.

When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed. I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It's obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn't start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago

While you sound reasonable, your mistake seems to be to believie that Judaism is the same as Zionism. It is not. It is completely not. They are inherently incompatible. Learn about it or don't. I'm not some kind of theological scholar or history professor. Maybe ask your local Rabbi about it.

Anyway, sorry to sound like some kind of an extremist to you, but violence is (at the moment) 100% the only answer. Not against the Jewish people, but against the fascist, zionist apartheid regime, who is committing genocide, right now, right before your eyes. Every day, bless you too.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Replace US with Israel in this Stokely Carmichael Quote:

“Dr. King's policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That's very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”

Israel, or any bully, will not be swayed by your appeals to their conscience, no matter how hard you try. Ruling classes intentionally spread pacifist propaganda becomes its completely unthreatening to them. Pacifism overall is a losing strategy with zero historical successes, as the article below gets into.

Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy's job for them. Youtube Audiobook

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

I think it's important to differentiate pacifism as a strategy -- the total renunciation of anything that could be considered violence, often including even mere property damage -- with non-violence as one tactic among many.

Many movements have had success using non-violence as a tactic in certain situations, so long as those movements don't take the possibility of ever using violence completely off the table (pacifism).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Dr. King also changed his opinion later on. People act like he was some lifelong pacifist without knowing his full history and what changes were caused by his pacifist actions and by other's more aggressive actions.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I'm extremely confused. The civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s, led by MLK, had massive, sweeping success. Brown v. BOE, Loving v. Virginia, Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act of 1965, Fair Housing Act of 1968, etc. The non-violent strategy succeded in striking down segregation, Jim crow laws, and nearly all forms of legal racial discrimination within a couple decades.

Securing legal rights for minority groups to be treated equally under the law and courts is a losing strategy? What exactly is your objective if you see the civil rights movement as a loss?

I understand that you're probably not American so you may not have an extensive knowledge of American history. But this is pretty important stuff, and acting like MLK failed because of his non-violent strategy is 1,000,000% wrong. Literally could not be further from the truth.

What did the Black Panthers accomplish with their violent strategy? They committed a few terrorist acts and all ended up dead or in jail. They didn't secure any major, permanent victories for future generations.

Saying that MLK failed because of his non-violent approach is like saying Julius Caesar failed because he was an ineffective military commander. It's so incredibly incorrect that I don't understand how you could ever come to think that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You did not read the linked article.

And also if you read Michelle Alexander's the new jim crow, you'll realize that even de-jure de-segregation has mostly been circumvented / nullified by drug laws. 1 in 5 black men will spend some time in prison in the US, and slavery is still legal in the US under the guise of drug-based imprisonment.

The article gets more into it, but the material wealth divide was completely unaffected by the civil rights "wins", and poverty is still growing along color lines. I'll post a few of these below:

  • The US currently operates a system of slave labor camps, including at least 54 prison farms involved in agricultural slave labor. Outside of agricultural slavery, Federal Prison Industries operates a multi-billion dollar industry with ~ 52 prison factories , where prisoners produce furniture, clothing, circuit boards, products for the military, computer aided design services, call center support for private companies. 1, 2, 3
  • The US has the highest incarceration rates in the world. Even individual US states outrank all other countries.
  • Ramping up since the 1980s, the term prison–industrial complex is used to attribute the rapid expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services to government prison agencies. Such groups include corporations that contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology vendors, companies that operate prison food services and medical facilities, private probation companies, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activist groups such as the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) have argued that the prison-industrial complex is perpetuating a flawed belief that imprisonment is an effective solution to social problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental illness, and illiteracy. 1
  • The War On Drugs, a policy of arrest and imprisonment targeting minorities, first initiated by Nixon, has over the years created a monstrous system of mass incarceration, resulting in the imprisonment of 1.5 million people each year, with the US having the most prisoners per capita of any nation. One in five black Americans will spend time behind bars due to drug laws. The war has created a permanent underclass of impoverished people who have few educational or job opportunities as a result of being punished for drug offenses, in a vicious cycle of oppression. 1, 2
  • In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 200 prison camps, housing over 31,000 undocumented people deemed "aliens", 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren't considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. 1, 2
  • The Obama era was one of the greatest decreases in working class and black wealth, 2 in history: home equity decreased by ~$17k between 2007 and 2016. His housing policies led to millions losing their homes. While Wall street banks recieved $29 Trillion in bailouts, $75 Billion in relief was set aside for housing foreclosures and mortgage assistance. Instead of being paid to families, this was paid to mortgage servicers, and the services found ways to pocket the money and continue foreclosures: by the end of the program, less than 20% of the funds were used, and most had dropped out of the program due to foreclosures. The Obama administration refused to prosecute the fraud, or any of those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis.
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Ok I still think it's wrong to criticize nonviolent resistance but I appreciate the data and links. It is true that I didn’t read the linked article at first.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

No probs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago

It's clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years.

This is a Zionism / Palestinian (and any other independence groups, really) "conflict", which is to say, occupation and rrsistance.

But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.

Diplomacy requires leverage and is not an inherent good on its own. Diplomacy can be a tool for delay, propaganda, and for achieving a lopsided deal with false representatives. All of these things have been done via US/Israeli "diplomacy" regarding Paleetine.

You see a people forced into a ghetto fighting back and say, "no that's not the way" as if you have any understanding and have earned an opinion. An important lesson to learn is when you should have no opinion until you become informed.

I'm arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don't have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.

The divide is already there. It is genocidal settler-colonial apartheid vs. freedom fighters. And the camps throwing in for each side of this. Personally, I don't find it difficult to place myself fully in the freedom fighter camp and against the genociders. Do you? And no, there is no third option because there is no third force with any leverage or will.

When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.

The violence has already been here. What on earth are you talking about? What fantasy world do you live in where passive Palestinians are left alone? The Israeli project is premised on their oppression and expulsion.

And you are simply wrong in your generalization. Violence has been essential for virtually every liberation fight. This is not because the marginalized love violence, it is because the oppressor leaves no other options.

I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel.

Israel is an apartheid ethnostate doing a genocide. It is racist and horrible to wish the best for it.

And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It's obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn't start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.

You don't deserve an opinion on this topic because you do not know anything about it. You do not get to set the terms of others' freedom. You should spend your time helping the resistance, not rationalizing a fairy tale about how to oppose settler-colonial genocide with "diplomacy" and no militarized resistance.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.

The mental model here is "violence and diplomacy are mutually exclusive". In fact, they're very closely connected, almost synonymous.

I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.

Agree here. I grew up in violence and lived through the peace process. It starts out violent, and you win concessions by showing strength, and then negotiate peace. That worked in Ireland in 1998 and almost worked in Palestine in 2000. Violence is the first part of the diplomacy.

When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.

You're saying that the weak should go to the negotiating table empty-handed, but that won't solve anything for them. They need to stop being weak and start being strong, then diplomacy can start to happen.

The solution to weakness is strength. How can the weak become strong without the Armalite?

The Catholics took up arms in 1968 and came to the negotiating table in 1998. We won some concessions because we showed strength for 31 years, not "empathy". Yasser Arafat understood this: he knew when to use violence and when to negotiate. If you defang yourself as Step One, you make diplomacy impossible.

I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.

I admire your values, but you're incorrectly equating "empathy and diplomacy". Diplomacy is more a military matter; empathy has no place in realpolitik.