this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/4262252

A combination of good high-speed internet coverage, high digital literacy rates, large rural populations and fast-growing fintech industries had put the Nordic neighbours on a fast track to a future without cash.

[...]

But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and a subsequent rise in cross-border hybrid warfare and cyber-attacks blamed on pro-Russia groups have prompted a rethink.

[...]

The Swedish government has since completely overhauled its defence and preparedness strategy, joining Nato, starting a new form of national service and reactivating its psychological defence agency to combat disinformation from Russia and other adversaries. Norway has tightened controls on its previously porous border with Russia.

[...]

[Norway's] justice and public security ministry said it “recommends everyone keep some cash on hand due to the vulnerabilities of digital payment solutions to cyber-attacks”. It said the government took preparedness seriously “given the increasing global instability with war, digital threats, and climate change. As a result, they’ve ensured that the right to pay with cash is strengthened”.

[...]

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[–] [email protected] 78 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

As much as I hate using cash, I understand that the credit card companies charge ridiculous fees to businesses and also that people with very low income don't always have access to digital forms of payment. Maybe Sweden does better with equipping their entire society with digital tools, but in the US I don't think we are ready for a fully digital payment society.

[–] [email protected] 58 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I don't like using cashless anything because I know part of the cost is my privacy. Having said that, convenience is a powerful draw and cash can be a pain, especially when you have to find a spot for small coins.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

nobody should be including apple or google spy apps in their payment processing

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If you are using Mastercard in the US, Google will be getting transaction data all the same: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45368040

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks, now I have to switch my primary credit card. Any concerns w/ Visa?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

apple and google is just a small part of the problem. using a debit card is not much better either

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Look into Monero. You get the benefits of digital payments, but you get the privacy of cash.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I use monero online and cash offline, because no one accepts monero offline.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

because no one accepts monero offline.

With the XMRBazaar map this may change

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Probably not, but one can hope.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

there haven't been card fees for end users in Sweden for many years. handling cash is a lot more expensive since you need somewhere secure to keep change, you loose time at the till handling the money, and you need to pay for someone to come pick it up. the time gained from just having the customers pay with card means businesses gladly swallow the fees.

and yes, i'm always surprised when going abroad how much more analog everything is. the nordics and Baltic's are generally at about the same level (with Estonia way ahead), but the rest of the continent feels like it's 10 years behind. I was once asked if I really wanted to pay with card in a corner shop in Leipzig, since the card fee was €10.

not that i'm a fan of the digitalisation, it makes marginalised groups even more marginalised. i see my elderly relatives struggling with it often.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago

The end user didn't pay directly, but the companies very much pay for this privilege

Which is why Swish, and in Norway, Vipps has been a big thing. So the banks can get that revenue for themselves instead of sharing with visa / Mastercard

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago

It's extremely disappointing to me (admittedly in the US) that Covid seems to have obliterated any chance for a large-scale investigation on payment processors' stranglehold on our financial systems. The fees that Visa/Mastercard/etc. charge, especially for tiny merchants with insanely low transaction numbers, are criminal.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

In the EU and UK, heavy regulation, especially of Visa and MasterCard, means the fees are actually lower than the costs of handling cash. Lots of businesses want only card transactions because it works out better for them and most people don't carry any cash so that need to offer card payments, and so it makes even less sense to offer both methods. The only industries who like cash are likely trying some form of tax evasion.

Cleverly, they banned businesses from charging any payment fees and suddenly, businesses negotiated and found suppliers offering low payment fees. We don't have anything like these convenience fees for paying with cards over cheque that I hear about.

Amex still charges higher fees so many places still don't take those cards. The value of benefits (air miles, cashback) have gone down significantly but in reality, it was essentially transferring wealth from the poor (who could never get these cards) to the rich, through these fees, so works out better overall.

The banks here advertise that they help everyone get bank accounts and social benefits are paid into bank accounts so I assume everyone is able to get an account. However, I do wonder if some people, especially the homeless, slip through the cracks.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

In Norway and Sweden many places just doesn't take cash. Probably been around 2 years since I last used cash

Anything from kids bakesales takes digital payment

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, we're moving that direction in the US as well, but most places will accept it, even if they "officially" don't, provided you ask nicely and don't use large bills.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Here, many stores don't accept cash so I assume accepting credit cards is cheaper and easier than handing cash.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

At least in the US, it's something like 3% for a business to accept cards, so they bake that into the price for everyone. So with cash, they technically make 3% more for each transaction, but they also have to manage the cash (deposit in bank, withdraw small denominations when running low, etc). Since most people are willing to use credit, it's simpler, though not necessarily cheaper to just accept digital payments, especially when you just need a small dongle for your phone to accept payments.

So in the US, it's more of a liability/convenience thing than a cost thing.