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I’m aphantasic. You can say “picture this” followed by whatever you like. It’s not possible for me in any way. Growing up I honestly thought “picture this” or “close your eyes and see” was just metaphor. I legitimately didn’t understand other people can see things.
My mind has a verbal descriptive stream, and I’m good with muscle-based or proprioceptive spacial memory, and the two combine to handle most things, but nothing visual. So like I can easily describe things from memory or from an idea, and it’ll be fully consistent, but not something I see.
If you have aphantasia, and not just hypophantasia, it makes no difference how much detail is provided, there’s a total, fundamental, inability to visualize things.
So as someone who coaches sometimes I have to ask. Can you imagine and feel body movements? Sometimes I'll ask someone to visualize themselves performing an action before they do it.
I’d imagine thinking through the thought has around the same mental impact. But that would be interesting to research as that advise always helped me massively in tennis.
In my experience people have a hard time running through a checklist in their head. That's why just imagining the action is so helpful, since you don't have to think as much. Or in my experience, the less you think about it the more natural the movement becomes. Like you can practice the action a bit but you need to eventually just do the action.
If someone told you to study a ball for 20 seconds and then close your eyes, then asked you immediately after you closed your eyes what colour the ball was, could you answer? The second something disappears from your visual field, is it gone from your "mind's eye"?
What's interesting to me about this is that the way our visual field works involves a lot of fantasy. Like, our minds are convinced that we're currently seeing everything in front of us and most of it is in focus. But, in reality our eyes can only really see a tiny amount of the world in full focus at once, but they're constantly flickering around filling in details. This is why some optical illusions are so strange, because they show us that our visual systems are taking shortcuts and what we think we see isn't actually reality. It makes me wonder if people with aphantasia actually "see" the world differently too.
I don’t have a minds eye for something to fade from, so that question doesn’t really make sense to me. I have my eyes and then when I close my eyes it’s either black or eyelid colored, nothing else, and I’m super unclear what seeing things in your mind is supposed to be like. Tho I do have super-vivid visual dreams these days (which did not happen until my late 20s, but aren’t at all uncommon for people with aphantasia) and because I only have open-eye sight and these dreams that seem totally real, I frequently have to ask people if things actually happened. It’s very disconcerting, but my understanding is that dreams are not really the same as waking minds eye anyway.
Rather than a visual representation, I’ll have a verbal description ready as soon as I see an item. So for the ball example, I’d know the ball is “small, about the size of a plum, solid pink somewhere between neon and intense salmon, smooth matte texture, looks like it might be foam”. It probably serves the same function as a visual representation, although perhaps with a bit more required specificity. I don’t really describe things to myself unless I need to, though, so I guess my thinking is sort of abstract. I know the traits something has, and can recall them, but typically don’t explicitly list them unless I’m describing for someone else.
One perk of this is I’m great at describing things I’ve seen or made up, a downside is I’m terrible when people describe things to me. Since I’ve never seen the thing being described, it is a super arbitrary list of usually non-specific features and I don’t care at all. I skip clothing descriptions in books, for example. Don’t care. But when I describe things, even made up things, I’ll run through a list of the features it needs as a minimum to be the object for my mind, which is usually vivid detail for others, as the ball example above.
Idk if I see things differently eyes-open, I don’t really think so, but that’s always been a curiosity of mine since there’s literally no way to know what other people see. I have mild impairments as a result of not being able to visualize, like I’m largely face blind - I have to pick out specific features and traits and use the combination as identifiers. I get a ton of false positives, and almost everyone “feels familiar”. Beyond that, I’m pretty sensitive to colors and patterns. Idk.
But the -way- you ask that first question makes me curious; If you close your eyes and intentionally picture something other than the ball, would you then be unable to tell me what color it was in your example? Do you, personally, require the visual representation to “know” the object?
It's hard to describe, but it's not replacing your eyesight. If I close my eyes I see black, or if there's some bright light I see red. But, it's like there's another visual channel going into your brain other than the one from your eyes. Most of the time, that channel is either off, or it's drowned out by the actual visual information which is so much more dominant. But, if your eyes are closed the fact there's no real information coming on the "real" visual channel means you're able to notice what the "virtual" visual channel is showing.
It's sometimes described as your "mind's eye", but for me, at least, it's not really like another eye because it's not detailed enough for that, but it's still as if there's an additional visual stream of information that goes from my memory to the visual processing part of my brain. For me, it's blurry and lacking in detail. It would be like using a slightly out of focus projector on a white wall in a well lit room. There are shapes and colours there, but they're hard to see. But, like an image from an out-of-focus projector, if you try harder you can make out more of what it's showing, and if you reduce other visual stimulus (like turn off the lights) you can notice more.
Does this happen instantaneously for you? If I tried to come up with a description like that it would take several seconds, whether I'm doing it while actually actively looking at the object, or with my eyes closed working based on a memory of the image my eyes saw.
Something real, or something I'm inventing with my imagination?
Like, translate the image to a word? I can tell you a word, but the metal image will come first. I think I do need the visual representation to know the object. Like, if someone gives me a description of something, I'll build a mental image based on that description. If someone asked me to describe it later, I'd probably use different words because I'd be going based on the image not on remembering the words.
In your case, if you have a memory of something that is "small, about the size of a plum, solid pink somewhere between neon and intense salmon, smooth matte texture, looks like it might be foam", how easy is it for you to change the words you'd use to describe it? Like, say someone asked you to describe it but not to use any words related to living things, could you swap out "plum" and "salmon" without effort? Do you think you're storing those actual words, or are you storing a concept? For example, if you're remembering a white rock, is it "rock" you're remembering, or is it the concept of a rock, which can match similar words like "pebble", "stone", etc.?
Also, I wonder how this affects your ability to remember descriptions of things that are not physically possible in our 3d world, like a Klein bottle or a hypercube. I wonder if, for you, there's no real difference in difficulty remembering the details of a cube vs. a hypercube because you can't picture either of them. Whereas for me, I can easily remember / picture a cube, but for a hypercube it's hard because it's not something I can get a real visual representation of.
Not who you asked, but yes I could answer and also yes it’s gone from my mind’s eye. I would be answering from memory.
I have no mind’s eye. Full-stop. But I have memory and can recall details without needing to see the thing.
If you can remember someone’s name after meeting them, that’s the same process it would be for me to remember their hair or shirt color.
When you say you're answering from memory, what is it that you remember? For example. I have a plush soccer ball / football near my bed. I haven't looked at it recently but I can remember what it looked like. I can tell you it was white with 2 black pentagon shapes near the mid-bottom (where it's squished) and 2 more near the top. I didn't think of the words "white" or "black" or "pentagon" until it was no longer in my field of vision, I was able to come up with those words based on the mental image I still had. What I'm remembering is the image, and I'm able to come up with words based on that image. Are you remembering the words you would use to describe it? If so, do you automatically come up with those words?
For me, if I glance at something for half a second I can take a mental snapshot of how it looks, and then with my eyes closed I can come up with a bunch of words I'd use to describe it. The mental snapshot isn't going to be very detailed, but it's enough to come up with maybe a dozen descriptive words over a few seconds. But, if I tried to come up with the words while looking at it, I would still need those few seconds to come up with the words. The words aren't an automatic thing, it's something I have to intentionally choose to generate, and it's slow.
I'm assuming that if you have full aphantasia, you wouldn't even be able to picture a simple shape like a triangle. So, if you want to draw a triangle, do you do it based on remembering something like the dictionary definition of a triangle and using that "recipe" to generate one? For me, I imagine the shape I want to draw, then my hand attempts to create that shape. For something simple like a triangle that's easy. For something complex like a face it's hard because my hand isn't able to create something that matches what I'm imagining.
What about something like a stop sign. I assume you can't picture a stop sign in your mind, but do you recognize one instantly without effort when you see it? If so, I wonder what details your brain is actually storing, like if it's storing words, how many words are in the description. The other day someone posted an image of a stop sign but the "stop" text was in lowercase not uppercase. I wonder if your brain stores the word (or a symbol representing the word) "uppercase" and mine stores how the letters look, which I can interpret as being uppercase if I think about it.
It’s hard to explain how one thinks. But yeah, I think of the words to describe something and they are automatic. I can’t describe a lot of detail about anything unless I’m looking at it, but I know enough of the basics to remember things.
I think the name comparison I mentioned is probably the best I can think of. When you see a person you know, how do you remember their name? Unless you’re a person who imagines their name on their forehead in order to remember it in the first place, I assume it’s just a word you associate with that person? That’s what the details of everything are like for me.
A triangle is a shape with three sides; that’s all I need to know and I can draw it. A stop sign is a hexagon, red, with STOP in the middle.
I can’t draw anything more complex than that unless I’m looking at it. I’m pretty good at recreating images I look at, but I can’t do art from my own head for shit; it’s paralyzing to even consider doing it.
When I’m reading a book, I’ll retain the most often repeated and basic physical traits. Harry Potter had a lightning scar and glasses, Ron Weasley was red headed, and Hermione had crazy hair. If there were other descriptions in the books, they never sunk in; my brain just disregarded them. However, now I think of Daniel Radcliffe and the other actors. I can’t describe what they look like but I can recognize those people with no hesitation.