this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024
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The problem here is apparently Orban, just read the full article. That aside, I fully support @Quittenbrot's response in this thread ('Kick them out of Schengen and block the borders').
Edit: @Successful_Try543 also has a good proposal imo ('suspend it’s membership using article 7 of EU treaty in case of severe violation of human rights').
I don't think, granting people easy visa rights that shouldn't get them for good security reasons can be considered a severe violation of human rights though.
While the human rights situation in Hungary is also getting worse, i also doubt it to qualify as "severe" yet. At least so far none of the other EU countries have used that as a formal reason and Germany was happy to deport a queer antifascist to Hungary just a few weeks back, for allegedly having attacked Nazis there. This definetly should not have had happened, but goes to show how far away from calling Hungary out on human rights violations we still are.
Problem with border patrols though is that they don't work against Schengen visas anyways afaik. If you are a legal resident in one EU country, you can travel inside the Schengen area.
? I obviously read the article, the quote is part of what you omitted from it. And then, you say the problem is Orban? What kind of nonsensical answer is that? Some think his policies are, and this specific policy might be debatable. How about that?
Edit: If the EU will claim Hungary is severely violating human rights by allowing people to cross its border, my faith in this project will be at its end.
Could you explain your position? Are you not against Russians entering EU/Schengen? Or are you against the methods used?
I don't speak German (other than DU HAST!), but I had ChatGPT translate it for me.
I'm not familiar with the user, but I wanted to know their reasoning. Nothing wrong with pointing out if EU or "the West" is doing something wrong, as long as it's constructive, and no blatant bias towards another party is displayed. So far I'm not seeing any explicit bias towards Russia or China, but thanks for the heads-up.
Their argument seems to boil down to "fighting Orban weakens EU". I suppose it's a somewhat reasonable position to have, but one, I must say, I don't quite agree with. And I would definitely like to hear their suggestion regarding how to deal with a member of a team who refused to play with the team.
I am not against Russians entering the EU. In contrast to many German politicians who were talking about offering Russians asylum after the war had started but never implemented these promises. The article implies Russians entering Europe would cause sabotage and what not, claiming previous sabotage as evidence. That doesn‘t make much sense. Denying Russians entry to the EU rather pushes them to an anti EU and pro Putin stance. I think this is a mistake.
Do you think we should be able to control who is coming from Russia into the EU?
Overall a difficult question. But I do know how hard it is to get a Schengen Visa for a Russian citizen, contrary to what the article implies. And I am pretty sure the Hungarians won‘t just wave them in now. There‘s definitely a lot of control over who‘s coming to the EU. And I am pretty sure this won‘t decrease.
How will it not decrease when Hungary abolished measures to control?
Do you acknowledge that it is in Russian interest to weaken the EU?
Yes I am sure it is in Putin‘s interest to weaken the EU. But I think in this conflict with Orban the EU is weakening itself a lot more than Putin or Orban could ever do. By fracturing the EU. Freaking out over Russian Visas for example.
How do you suggest EU deals with Orban while he is actively trying to ignore the rest of the leaders of member states?
Trying to remain calm and focused. Not freaking out when he‘s going to Putin and Xi and claiming he pretended to go on the EU‘s behalf. Not pulling stunts like sending minor officials to Hungary‘s EU meetings.
But that's not an action. That's inaction. I mean, what needs to be done to stop him from actively compromising EU interests? Letting him do whatever he wants doesn't sound like an effective strategy.
True. Of course there would be the option of changing the EU unanimous voting system, so disagreeing member states wouldn‘t be able to block the whole Union. But small member states don‘t want to give up those veto options. In the case of Poland the EU has initiated article 7 that would have suspended its voting rights (relevant because of Poland‘s precious fascist government), but that hasn‘t materialised since 2017 and now there‘s a new government. So it isn‘t easy. But the commission not attending meetings and such feels like ceding control to me.
Who is fracturing the EU? The one person working with Russia and against EU wherever he can or the other 20 something that have a more or less unified position?
I think the awkward moves of the commission to ostracise Hungary by not attending its meetings and trying to subvert its council presidency did cause some consternation in other states of the EU as well. Accusing him of pretending to visit Russia and China on behalf of the EU was pretty laughable, too, because everybody knew he wasn‘t. I am really not a fan of Orban, but this doesn‘t make the EU look good or strong.
Would you consider Orban isolated in Europe concerning his position towards Russia, compared to other EU governments?
Would you say Orban is trying hard to cooperate with the rest of the EU?