this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
229 points (90.5% liked)

Europe

8324 readers
1 users here now

News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺

(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures

Rules

(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)

  1. Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
  2. No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
  3. No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.

Also check out [email protected]

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 135 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Thanks Merkel for keeping us dependent on russian gas.

And thanks all the peoplethat voted against efforts to move to renewables, continue to block themand opposed a law that would transition us away from fossil heating.

Also the sale of Oil and Gas heating skyrocketed this year, because of panics that it might be banned soon to install new ones under the new law. The law specified something like 2027, but the German idiot never lets facts get in the way of his Angst and panic pushed by right wing media and politics.

The issue is that the progressive side warned that this will happen and it will get worse as the prices of fossils have to increase. But the conservative majority in Germany wants to get fucked, as long as they can continue fucking the planet, because that is what they always did and identify with.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 11 months ago (1 children)

diE gRüNeN wOlLeN uNs UnSeRe aUtOs wEgNehMeN!!!

[–] [email protected] 28 points 11 months ago

This artificial panic is for once not about cars, it's about heating. Too many germans think and or have been conditioned to think that the Greens and other environmentalists want them to just shut off their heating and freeze. The network of gas industry lobbyists is strong in germany and successfully installed a "clean-gas"-campaign in the former government and now convinces even a Green industrial minister to install new and very oversized LNG terminals, in part because of the Green-cold scare.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

And thanks all the people that voted against efforts to move to renewables, continue to block them and opposed a law that would transition us away from fossil heating.

I believe those people are called "conservatives".

[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If it were only the conservatives. The liberal party and the social democrats aren't better in any way.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

Thanks Merkel for keeping us dependent on russian gas.

And let's thank the SPD for making us depend on russian gas in the first place.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 45 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (8 children)

Please do not share links from this rightwing outlet - isn’t someone else reporting on this subject?

Edit: OP shared a link to „Welt“ but changed it by now - consider the comment irrelevant.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm not familiar with German newspapers, do you have an article from another newspaper I could replace the link with?

[–] [email protected] 40 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The FAZ is still rather conservative, but much better than the "Welt":

https://m.faz.net/agenturmeldungen/dpa/5-5-millionen-menschen-konnten-2022-nicht-angemessen-heizen-19344930.html

Or you could link to DeStatis, the website of the Federal Statistical Office:

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Zahl-der-Woche/2023/PD23_48_p002.html

Whatever you like best! Thank you for considering to change the link.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (2 children)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Okay, OP already changed the link, cause I thought "since when is destatis rightwing?"

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That's a pointless title. The truth is that 5.5 people claim they didn't heat sufficiently. Whether it was objectively sufficient is a completely different question and going by the actual numbers for usage, households Germans barely reduced their heating. Almost all savings were done by the industry. The the average person in Germany still heats their living room above 20°C.

If you're healthy then going with 17°C indoors isn't actually a problem (I tested that myself last year). Having to wear a second sweater or using a blanket isn't something you should get to complain about when the alternative literally kills people.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

And meanwhile my neighbour just keeps his windows open in winter since the costs are included in the rent. Fuck him.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

but then the rent gets more expensive for everyone? or am i dumb?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That’s exactly the point. Unfortunately some people don’t think very far. Maybe his intentions aren’t even bad, he’s just beyond sloppy and shouldn’t live unsupervised.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

I don’t think you’re the dumb one in this.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Sorry but if the house is properly heated - there are no Germans living there.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 11 months ago (2 children)

If you have old people as neighbours above and below you'll sit at 23°C without ever turning the radiator on in the deepest winter.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Old people are more likely to have arthritis or joint pain.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Also more likely to spend more time at home.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

I feel offended that you seem to be right, because I'm a German and I rarely heat at all.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Yeah I was going to ask, what is proper indoor temperature for Germany anyway, like 18°C?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

There is no official proper indoor temperature, but the courts settled at > 20 °C in the day and > 18 °C in the night as "normal". If it's not possible to achieve this temperature, the tenant has the right to withhold part of the rent as long as the heating is not fixed. But tenants are allowed to have their appartment as cold as they like as long as they don't grow mold.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

You need to put on the heater in many homes because otherwise you will get mold. It depends on the house, of course. Doesn't matter how much you cross ventilate. :(

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

"could not"... it's past tense, in 2022. (also in past tense in the article linked.) I expect that as the first panic around energy vs. ru-ua war settled at the end of 2022 / beg. 2023, prices went back to a normal, although probably not pre-war, levels. (at least that's what happened in the netherlands.)

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

Unfortunately, the people were neither given nor asked for the "sufficient" temperature. While I don't appeciate that climate measures are forced on the poor only, there's many people that waste a lot of energy on heating in the winter. I don't think 22°C+ should be the norm. If you put on some warm clothes, 18°C are absolutely fine. Personally, I like colder temps indoor and I go for 16°C in the winter as long as there's no mold issues.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

That assumes everyone experiences heat and coldness the same which isn't the case. I for example need around 20 degrees to feel alright in warm clothing. But on the other hand I am fine in around 43 degrees in the summer and wouldn't use any AC below that.

Also young kids and older people have different needs as well.

If you wanted to regulate this, the time and money needed to care for everyone who get an exception from this rule could likely be used instead to heat everyone's home.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

Also, many people with autoimmune conditions experience worsened symptoms when it's hot out.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (10 children)

I don't want to regulate heating. I just find it unfortunate that the survey doesn't mention the target temperature that people couldn't afford. If someone says "it's too expensive nowadays to heat my flat to 25°C" it's a completely different story to "I had to live in constant fear of my water pipes bursting from frost".

We have an ongoing climate crisis and at the same time there's an energy crisis due to the war in Russia. I think keeping that in mind, it should be obvious that we have to cut back a bit in terms of comfort.

If it's indeed more than a third of Germany sitting in their flats freezing that'd be dramatic. But my feeling here it's at least partly people whining around about their horrible fate.

Headlines like this are perfect propaganda for pro Russian politics and in a second step may harm the people in Ukraine - which in many places are REALLY suffering from cold temperatures. Because they are cut off the grid and/or because their flats were damaged in battle.

load more comments (10 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

For just sitting around 18 or 16°C is way too cold.

Even in warm clothing.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's almost as if different people who are used to potentially drastically different climates may have a different amount of tolerance for the cold.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

Yes, but in the absence of other factors, "cold tolerance" is something that can change by habituation.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I'm perfectly fine sitting at my desk all day with 18°C in shorts and hoodie.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

I wish I could do that. Unfortunately my rented flat requires 23°C of heating to prevent mold thanks to bad windows that cannot be fixed due to the house community not wanting to pay for replacing them. And yes I'm practicing proper venting, supported with several devices for timing. I'm so glad I'll be moving out soon.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think there are also different mentalities. Just last winter, I had a similar discussion, where someone explained to me that the room heating is meant to fully offset the temperature, so he can walk summer and winter in shorts, t-shirt and barefoot. So it's 23°C in winter.

While I'm used to wearing jogging pants and socks indoor during winter, so 18°C is fine for me.

Then again, you also have to adjust for personal preferences, different sex, different heating infrastructure etc. But 23°C to go shorts and barefoot in winter was an extreme reveal to me, that people do something like this as well.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

If you put on some warm clothes, 18°C are absolutely fine.

Not if you're very young, very old, or have any one of an endless list of health conditions

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

there is studies that concluded an increased risk of getting colds, when the indoor temperature is consistently below 20 °C

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

There are indeed studies but they place the low cutoff at 18°C not at 20°.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK535294/

For countries with temperate or colder climates, 18 °C has been proposed as a safe and well-balanced indoor temperature to protect the health of general populations during cold seasons.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (5 children)

As someone who rents an appartment, I do not have a sense for heating and what I can afford. I simply get the bills one year later

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

It's not like I could before. It's just going to be more expensive again, but I have already kept my heating pretty low.

load more comments
view more: next ›