Trans rights are human rights
Gay rights are human rights
Black peoples rights are human rights
Women's rights are human rights
Human rights exist.
this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2023
91 points (94.2% liked)
Asklemmy
43857 readers
1836 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy π
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
These will still get you cancelled in 2023 in some countries.
Correct
Conversely, there were countries even back then that supported all these things. The Iroquois Confederacy was famous for giving women virtually all the power (except for running for office), and Japan had LGBT accomodations (and interracial respect, albeit with some skepticism) going back centuries.
This is the history I want to learn more about!!
Which one?
Anything that is embracing diversity/women's rights/trans rights/etc. Sounds like a really interesting culture.
There are other places that come close to those. For example, the ancient Greeks had LGBT acceptance, as ordained by the gods, albeit from a very male-centric point of view. Nevertheless, Iroquois history is what you'll find fulfills that, and as someone who has been exposed to their culture for a while, I can offer a bit of insight.
The rulers, which always ruled in consensus groups of five or six, were always male, as was three out of four of the founders of their government (Deganawida, Hiawatha, Atotarho, and Jigonsasee who was the female whose idea it was), but the voters (because it was a democracy that surpassed any other democratically) were always female, and most rights centered around us, including divorce (a woman could simply walk out of a household if she wanted), and goddesses took center stage.
They even went so far as to say civilization was founded once before Deganawida founded it, by a female founder called Godasiyo, but her pet doggo caused a civil war as doggos do, and after her last ditch attempts at saving the kingdom failed, she turned into a fish in shame.
"Trans isn't a word. Everyone has a right to be gay, jolly and happy or whatever synonym you want to use."
- someone from 1823, when "gay" meant "cheerful".
"I say there can be no justice, so long as the sodomites are not allowed to practice love as they will!"
canceled
Maybe he means trans-Atlantic rights?
Poland, Warsaw (then had separate legal systems), The Netherlands, Bavaria, the Dominican Republic and El Salvador all decriminalized same sex relationships in the 1810s and 20s. So it wasn't exactly all completely dead-against.
"If I could but play the advocate of the devil's for but a moment; does not an educated person, who hast accrued more whelth, hencewheretofore demonstrated a more explicit display of personhood?"
- an edgelord/temporarily embarrassed thousand-aire of the time, probably.
1923 - "we need to scrap the harshest measures of the treaty of versailles and help Germany's economic recovery, otherwise these national socialists are going to exploit the misery to gain power" lol
That wouldn't get you cancelled, that was basically the position of the US government which led to the Dawes Plan in 1924 to do exactly that. The impact of Versailles in the rise of the Nazis wasn't so much economic, by 1924 Germany was probably saving more by not being allowed to have a large army than it was losing to reparations, and the period of 1924-1929 was even called the Golden Twenties. The humiliation factor of how it was negotiated and imposed however played right into Hitler's hands.
That or gut them much harder
1823: we should let the Indians have their land
1923: we really need to go over to Europe and stop that Hitler guy
1923 is a little premature. He wasnβt appointed Chancellor of Germany until 10 years after that. Hitler was actually in prison in 1923 for attempting a coup, so it wouldnβt have been too upsetting to say you were against him.
It wouldn't have been Hitler that would have gotten you canceled. It would have been suggesting we go get involved in another war so soon after WWI with no real evidence that it would be important.
However later on there was more support even among Americans with the US Nazi party that existed and tried to run in elections.
To be fair many around the world saw Fascism as a new exciting way to run a country until war broke out. Then those Nazis and fascists were only good when they were dead.
I wonder if those cosplaying as Nazis today understand they aren't the heroes they think they are especially when it comes to US WW2 veterans, (many would consider the real heroes) would want these newer Nazis dead too.
Hitler was always criticized. There's a NYT report calling him out as an antisemite in the 1920's and Casablanca looked down on Nazis almost a decade before the first signs were showing of the holocaust to come.
There's a NYT report calling him out as an antisemite in the 1920's
Sure, but this was at a time where you could get antisemitic magazines delivered to your door, and some people had dozens. There really wasn't as much stigma on it as now (And I'd argue it could use a little more stigma still). There were lots of places around the world where you could discuss the latest details of antisemitism with your hairdresser, and it wouldn't even be that weird.
I'm not saying there was stigma on it, I'm only saying it wasn't some alien idea that, just maybe, the Hitler guy might be shady.
The Dearborn Independent from Henry Ford was one of the most wildly distributed papers of its time due to the Ford dealer network and how Ford was lauded as a the hero that brought the car to rural folk giving them freedom.
It's unfortunate that his antisemitic views were often the main things one would find in his paper that many would have just accepted as fact. Ford a brilliant man in many ways but this was one of the few ways in which he wasn't.
There really wasnβt as much stigma on it as now (And Iβd argue it could use a little more stigma still).
Any criticism of Israel is met with cries of "antisemitism!" so I think we have enough stigma.
Thatβs not stigma thatβs false positive identification
Who is Casablanca? Or do you mean the film?
The play that the movie was based on was written in 1940.
Now you have me second-guessing, I know there was a classic movie where the characters jab at Nazis before what they were known for came to light. I'll edit it in when I think of it.
Idk about 1923, but in 1823 you would definitely get "canceled" for saying that washing your hands is good for your health.
"Hah! Germ theory? Preposterous! I should think these 'germs' no more real than the tooth fairy. Why should the patient sit in their agony while you rinse your hands when there is surgery to perform? Why, it's downright disrespectful, wasting the patient's time like that, as if you care more for the tidiness of your person than their well-being. I should hope that no poor, beleaguered soul has the misfortune to find themselves under your care"
It's a shame how they railroaded him into the poor house for such ideas. Sometimes being first is the worst to be.
In both eras, colonialism and militarism were still going on, and even though many powers condemned these two things, if we rule out things that weren't obvious like being a murderer, you could bet on supporting desertion and draft dodging getting you cancelled in all countries. This is literally how Red Badge of Courage starts.
All of them?
Segregation being a bad thing
Communism
well not in 1823.
You mean didn't ?
I don't know what you're asking but the word "communism" - although used in some small French circles in the late 1780s didn't get used in English until 1840.
I see 1823 as in the past when it's currently 2023, didn't know about that wasn't a English word then .
understood, but in the same way that 2023 is different to 1979 and 1951 - so too 1823 was different to 1867 (first volume of Das Kapital published) and 1894 (last volume of Das Kapital published)
Liking femboys