this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2023
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Europe

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[–] [email protected] 126 points 1 year ago (24 children)

Burning a symbol to upset people is a shitty thing to do, but it should not be illegal.

Assaulting people, whether they burned a symbol you like or not, is a shitty thing to do that should remain illegal.

And yes, some people in my country have burned symbols that represent people like me recently. Nobody from my community assaulted the people who did it in response. Just the way it should be.

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[–] [email protected] 74 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Yeah, no, sorry. The Arabic world with the monstrous societal issues they're suffering, has no right to dictate how our western world laws should look like. We have no obligation to bow to them, especially concidering there is nothing more anti Muslim than neighboring muslim countries. We had our borders open while the rich Arabic world shut theirs. This is just those rich countries grasping for more power. Fuck off or no more assistance programs, we'll spend our tax payers money on our own country instead of giving it to some ungrateful Arabic leaders new Ferrari.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In the interests of informed debate: Europe does not make no-strings welfare payments to Arab despots. What money they have they usually get from resource extraction, oil and so on. To the extent Europe pays anyone off, it is very much conditional - stopping migrants, for example.

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[–] [email protected] 59 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Fuck this. The right to free expression is at the very core of a free society. Religious assholes need to deal with it or get the fuck out. If they can’t live in the west without starting violent riots every time someone offends their beliefs then they have no place in a pluralist and democratic society.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago

Blasphemy laws in 2023...

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago

Don't you dare incite the religion of peace into violence!! We all know burning ink and paper are grounds for terror!! 🀑...

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They shouldn't have put religion into this bill. In France, filming Quran burnings would be illegal in regards so the "incite hate law". I hope so at least! It's better to word it this way, so you can condemn provocation like holy book burnings, but keep caricature out of it.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Yes. Everyone told them to use the β€œdisturbance of public peace” angle. They chose this idiocy. No fβ€” clue why.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

This Saturday is international blasphemy day (30 Sept):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_Day

educates individuals and groups about blasphemy laws and defends freedom of expression, especially the open criticism of religion which is criminalized in many countries.

"We're not seeking to offend, but if in the course of dialogue and debate, people become offended, that's not an issue for us. There is no human right not to be offended."

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If you came for the comments, turn back now πŸ˜‚

Europeans believe in freedom, as in freedom from harassment and hate speech, for everyone, for the good of everyone

Americans believe they personally should have freedom to do or say anything, even if it's hateful and incites violence, as long as they personally are "free", even if it is bad for society as a whole

These are incompatible views and no good can come of this thread

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I am a European and I do believe in the real freedom (the one that ends where someone elses starts) but I don't see how this applies whatsoever here, plasphemy laws in 2023 is nuts and shouldn't be a thing!

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To me, this falls under the Paradox of Tolerance. Acts of hate should be strongly discouraged.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (8 children)

That doesn't work in this case since it applies to both sides. The rioting religious people and the Quran burners are both filled with hate.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

both filled with hate.

That doesn't make them equal.

For example, if you look at two people, one that is a Nazi and one that hates Nazis, they are both hating. But it's quite clearly due to said paradox of tolerance. Only one of them is the asshole.

edit: apperently the analogy wasn't quite clear.

One is an ideological organisation which is has been causing oppression of minorities for a thousand years up to this day with countless atrocities commited in it's name, without going into details ... the other one is a person with a book, matches and a message.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Okay so, which one is the nazi? The religious zealot willing to chop teachers heads off for "wrong teaching" or the person burning their "holy" books as protest?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

The religious zealot of course. I really didn't think I had to spell that out....

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Well, then in this case I guess the religious person who is willing to riot, injure and kill would be the asshole going purely by their actions and motivations for those actions. Or are you arguing that killing someone for a symbolic insult to your world view is comparable to hating a Nazi?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Well, then in this case I guess the religious person who is willing to riot, injure and kill would be the asshole going purely by their actions and motivations for those actions.

Obviously, yes.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (6 children)

This is a clear violation of peoples right to free expression. religious nutjobs have no place determining what we can and can't do in society

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (10 children)

No it is not. Hate speech should not be mislabeled as free expression and many countries exempt hate speech from protected speec and criminalize it.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

On the contrary, it's free expression that should not be mislabeled as hate speech.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

If I am not wrong Sweden tried something similarly stupid, luckily some court ruled against it in the end!

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