this post was submitted on 28 Oct 2024
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Lefty Memes

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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.

If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.

Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!

Rules

0. Only post socialist memes

That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (12 children)

Or hear me out, most depictions are from the renaissance when "Not being white" was a relatively new concept to Painters?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus is white and ripped because of several very prominent renaissance painters using their hot twink lovers as their models

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 22 hours ago

There's also evidence that White Jesus originated as a Borgia pope, it's not nearly that cut and dry

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

This is a pretty flawed understanding of history.

Humans have always travelled, in Europe even serfs would hope to go on pilgrimage and Lords generally had to allow it. Although it may only be to a nearby cathedral. Italy was a trade hub, and a relatively short trip by boat to north Africa.

European painters knew that people came in different shades. As proof, go look at the school of Athens painting.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The average peasant in medieval Europe would certainly never see an African person in his lifetime.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

The average peasant in medieval Europe wasn't painting commissions for cathedrals

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Across all of Europe and all of the middle ages? Sure probably. Never hear of them, see them in art? I dunno, it's hard to say because we don't have a lot of documentation on what normal people's lives were like.

In the cosmopolitan cities like Prague you probably would. Also any major Mediterranean trade port. Anyone who went on pilgrimage to those places, or along them, probably would. Cutting off Jerusalem to pilgrimage being such a big political deal indicates that many people went there or wanted to, and people loved sharing stories of places.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

shhhhhhh op feels smart. he used big words and everything.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)

I'd be shocked if they put that much thought into it. It's probably just good old unconscious ethnocentrism. Jesus is white because I'm white and that's my default setting to view the world.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus became white when Christianity spread in Europe and became a European religion. Earlier Jesus paintings had him a few shades darker. Palestinians are still light skinned and the dark skin is mostly acquired from working in the field.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago

Jesus is depicted as black in the Ethiopian Orthodox church and is shown as Japanese in some Japanese Orthodox churches.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago

Ethiopian Jesus looks like an east African.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus is like a Marvel superhero. Like any pop culture fiction, it's rendition changes to reflect and is a product of the era of that particular iteration of the superhero. You even have the religious offspring sect equivalents of Invincible and The Boys.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago

Was going to say... there's no shortage of art - historical or modern - that portrays Jesus as the dominant regional ethnicity.

Case in point

A theory that claims multiple leaders – from Jesus to Barack Obama – are actually Turkish and that modern nations are little more than portions of a greater Turkic whole is gaining traction in many countries

[–] [email protected] 65 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Jesus, what do you mean by "you people"?

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 3 days ago (19 children)

You know that there's different depictions of Jesus in many races, right? Like, people in Africa have depictions of a black Jesus, for example.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Yeah, I think the far easier explanation is "people around the world depict their religious figures as looking like themselves".

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

How are we supposed to get outraged at that though?

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago (2 children)

It's about European churches using historical revisionism (depicting Jesus as a white European) to establish a sense of "superiority".

Those churches are by far the most dominant

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Frankly this comes off almost as a conspiracy theory. Christian art in Europe developed its typical imagery when the vast majority of Europeans could have no direct contact with non-Europeans, before colonialism or coherent ideas about racial identities, when far-off lands were thought to be occupied by one-legged giants...

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

You know that... Christianity developed in the Roman Empire? The Middle East (more exactly Palestine and Syria. Which were larger that today's counterparts) wasn't some magical place where giants lived, but a province of said Empire

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Dude: ports exist, people trade, across the Mediterranean you can find lots of different skin colours and customs.

Nobility and their favoured travelled extensively, skilled tradespeople would undertake elaborate pilgramidge if they could afford it all the way to Jerusalem. Even serfs got to go on pilgrimage although usually not to Jerusalem but to other cathedrals.

Stop with this ahistorical nonsense. Maybe someone in the British isles might not have much contact of the greater world but the HRE? Spain? Italy? The eastern Roman empire? Of fucking course they did.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I prefer juiced up Korean Jesus. Does thy god even lift?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I had to check this out. Jesus!!!

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago

Jesus the Barbarian, amazing ✨

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It's not only Jesus, but it's religious figures too. Muslims do the same to depictions of their saints, they should always look like "us".

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Majority of Muslims actively avoid portrayals of religious figures. They would rather have the persons head glowing or something like that to avoid misrepresentation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yes, despite that there are pictures from saints (imams) and paintings at least in Iran, which are purely imaginary and look like Iranians.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Imams aren't prophets like Jesus is in Islam. And some of the imams are Iranian, or at least middle-eastern. It also varies, some do block out depictions of the imams as well.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 days ago

Jesus: It's because I'm not your god. I'm god of the people that colonized your country, took some of your people as slaves and made you all believe in me instead of your original black gods.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 days ago (6 children)

Imma be a total dweeb and give the correct answer. Jesus is just Josh in Greek. There's many meticulous Roman records about messianic rebels in Judea, not a single Josh among them. One possible interpretation would be that the Romans were so invested I'm erasing Jesus from history, they removed the Joshes, but Christianity was a NON-factor before 77AD, so doubtful Roman clerks were furiously burning records to cover up a messianic figure nobody would give a shit about for a century.

The earliest 1st century CE images have Jesus portrayed like a little Harry Potter of indeterminate race, which seems weird since he's supposed to be 30, but maybe it's a Michael J Fox situation, where he points his magic wand at images of the miracles (like loaves and fishes) but it's more likely he never existed (thus the absence of that Josh in the meticulous records).

Rome around this time was religiously divided between an ostensible state religion of the Roman pantheon we all know and love and various "cults" such as The Cult of Saint John, which predates Christianity -- you can think of his appearance in Christianity like how Munch from Homicide: Life on The Streets carried over to Law & Order: SVU. Other cults were influential among various groups -- Cult of Isis and Osiris was for the nerds, Mithraism was for the jocks, Cult of Cybele was for the ladies.

Constantine, when he came to power, desperately wanted to reboot the Roman state religion with more of that slick theocratic energy they saw in Judea, so he decided the answer was scrapbooking: He'd call the religion Christianity, but Jesus would be sexy Apollo, and God would be bearded Zeus, both of Greco-Roman imagery. The marriage ceremony would come from Isis and Osiris, and they shoehorn in mother imagery from Cybele and Skandamata, creating Mary iconography. Throw in a dash of baptism from John the Baptist and Mitraism's bath in bull's blood, and voila! Christianity as we know it.

So the tl;dr is that's not your Jesus, that's Sexy Apollo with a Jesus skin mod, and there never was a historical Jesus, he never existed

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago

There's many meticulous Roman records about messianic rebels in Judea

No, there’s not. And the consensus of historians who actually study this is that Jesus was a historical person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

You’re repeating a fringe theory that has been examined and rejected by scholars.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 days ago
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago
[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Because the Vorlons have programmed the younger species to view them as holy beings

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