I love fueling the fountain of blood! 
I especially love fueling the fountain of blood overseas while my fellow citizens die and add more blood! 
this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
105 points (99.1% liked)
196
16488 readers
2222 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Hexbear dumbasses & spreading for an authoritarian regime, name a more iconic duo.
You know what's anti-war? War!
Suggesting the defender in a war should just stop fighting, or that helping them is bad because if they did not have the ability to defend themselves, they'd quickly be unable to fight and the war would end with their defeat, is not anti-war. It is appeasement, and that is ultimately pro-war, because it creates a situation in which starting wars of aggression can benefit the ones who start them, which inevitably leads to more wars being started. To be against war, in the long term, one must support a situation in which starting wars is against the self-interest of those in the position to do so, and one of the clearest ways to do that is to try to ensure that those who begin wars of conquest or other such aggression, lose them.
Stopping wars is actually starting wars, I am very smart 
Or maybe you're intentionally playing with words. In which case let me point out that the West didn't start the war. Russia did. They had a whole "special military operation" about it.
Fucking peaceniks, greatest Russian allies out there. Absolutely disgusting mentality.
load more comments
(5 replies)
Where did I claim to be smart? I am merely pointing out that, if you give those who start wars what they want, they have an incentive to go and start more of them.
Considering your takes, I certainly didn't assume you were smart, although I don't think intelligence is a qualitative measurement.
In terms of wars, you do realize that wars are started for different reasons, right? The material realities that start wars differ vastly from war to war. Also, if the USA is any example, losing a war does not do anything to stop a country from starting another one.
OMG YESSS ICE DRAGON COOL!!!
Anyways, you have the right idea about it being unjust that those who start wars of aggression reap benefits from starting them. That is why it is best for both Russia and Ukraine to resolve this using peaceful negotiations, as the reason why america is pouring military hardware into the latter is to bolster its own war of aggression against Russia motivated by cynical geopolitical interests.
This current conflict has a long and bloody history stretching way back from 2014 till now. It is called the "Russo-Ukranian war" and started with the Euromaidan incident when the EU used far right groups to antidemocratically depose a pro-Russian Ukranian president and plant someone who is more aligned with their agenda so that they could put pressure on Russia, as Russia was starting to get unfriendly towards the American trading bloc.
As such, the true nature of this conflict is an awful proxy war between Russia and NATO (america), where innocents suffer and the rich get richer.
Therefore, I think we would both agree that it is not good for america to send more weapons to Ukraine as this would be fulfilling america's own selfish geopolitical interests using the lives of innocent Ukranians.
Nice profile too btw
While in principle I do get the idea that a negotiated peace is preferable to a situation where the two parties in a conflict simply fight themselves until one side physically cannot, I do not see a way in which that can reasonably be done in the case of this conflict without one side being beaten militarily, because the goals of each side are not comparable. Russia has been trying to annex territory from Ukraine, but as far as I have seen, Ukraine has not sought to take land from Russia (if you take only the current phase of the conflict, one might suggest that they are seeking to retake Crimea, but as you yourself pointed out, the conflict itself has been ongoing for longer than the current large scale war has been going on, and as such, even if the Ukrainians managed to take it somehow, that would not represent the addition of new territory not in their possession before the conflict started). The problem this presents is that, if one were to negotiate a "white peace", that is to say, just put the border back to how it was before the conflict started, then that effectively represents Ukraine accomplishing pretty much all of its major goals and Russia none of it's own. As such, Russia has no particular reason to accept this, unless physically forced to by virtue of military defeat, which would kind of defeat the point of a negotiated settlement in the first place as that would simply represent a Ukrainian military victory anyway. But on the flipside, ceeding any of the disputed land to Russia represents a situation where Russia wins- maybe not anything like as big a win as they would like, but they would in that scenario have started a large scale war (regardless of how exactly the conflict itself began, Russia did take the step of turning it from what it was into a full-scale war, by invading Ukraine), and then ultimately gained territory from it, which is exactly the sort of precedent that we've already established needs to be avoided. What then, is left for such a settlement to be?
Just going to reply to myself here, as I did not finish what I was thinking earlier (I was on my lunch break and as I like to take time to reply to these things, I ran out of time, my apologies). In any case, what I was trying to say is, that I do not think a mutually satisfactory peace settlement can be achieved here, due to the sides involved having completely exclusive objectives. As such, I see three options for how the war could end:
- some degree of a Russian victory
- some degree of a Ukrainian victory
- a long grinding war of attrition that never results in victory for anyone and settles into a frozen conflict, like seen in Korea.
I think most will agree that the last one is a bad outcome, due to the result of a long war with no resolution. I personally do not believe a Russian victory is acceptable either, for the reasons I talked about earlier, about rewarding aggression. Therefore, the only remaining option I see as plausible is a Ukrainian victory, therefore I take the stance that Ukraine should win. If Ukraine were to win, I further hold that it is preferable that they do so quickly and decisively, as it is better that the war be resolved with the minimum number of casualties, on either side, and a war of attrition does not do that by definition. Ukraine does not currently seem to have the resources required to achieve this, given that their current counter-offensive operations are proceeding relatively slowly. I therefore do support giving them those resources, and more, if they need it, and security guarantees afterwards- not because I am in any way in favor of war, but because I honestly believe that doing so is required in order for it end as quickly as realistically possible with the lowest chance of a similar war breaking out again soon after.
I imagine that you and others in this thread will disagree with the premises I take, or the conclusions I draw from them, but I hope at least that I've been able to make my reasoning clear on how I arrive at the conclusion that I do.
Why is it so critical to punish Russian aggression? It’s not like it’s the only aggressive state around, and definitely not the worst? Hasn’t the fact that not a single official responsible for the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Yemen been punished a bigger factor in rewarding aggression?
Id say that those officials should be or should have been punished, the fact that they have not been is not a factor in how I feel that the current situation should be dealt with. "Other people got away with it" is not an excuse
load more comments
(7 replies)
UA, and by that I mean its state, has been a naked pawn since 2014, responding to Western interests to stoke and prolong civil war by the Russian border, target ethnic Russians with discrimination and violence (and Roma, and LGBTQ+ people, etc), and generally toy with joining NATO, a highly aggressive anti-Russian military organization.
The dominant Western propaganda narrative is to try to get everyone to forget the breathless reporting their media outlets did on Ukraine from 2013-2022 and to instead use absurd little terms like, "unprovoked invasion", which I would guess is also where the idea of UA being simply defensive comes from. Yes, they were invaded by Russia, but they've also been ratcheting up pressure on Russia for a decade through various cynical moves, beginning with a coup against a government that was becoming slightly friendlier with Russia. The most notable events just prior to the RF invading was a huge ramping up of shelling of the Donbas, including civilian population centers.
Anyways, yes it is bad to keep pushing the "escalate and fight to the last Ukrainian button". It would be much better if Ukraine were forced to negotiate peace and were not acting as a pawn against Russia rather than a state protecting its own people.
I'd like Ukrainians to be alive and not in a war.
Wow I didn't know russian shills followed us to lemmy
Its not nice to call ppl shills m8
Lmao, I'm sorry I hurt the poor fascists feelings
Why r they fascist?
You guys seem to support fasciZt governments.
Inb4 America/Ukraine are the real fascists.
How is wanting a war to end without more innocent lives being lost "supporting" a fascist government?
If Russia wanted to end the war so bad they could just leave. Ukraine doesn't have that option.
Russia invaded Ukraine to gain new territory. If you want the war to end as it stands now, then you're okay with giving up land and the people they've kidnapped from it to a fascist regime in a war of aggression. That's supporting a fascist government.
Okay but instead of making infantile suggestions that no one with any sort of adult mind think is even possible, including the US and Ukrainian Militaries, why don’t we talk about actually likely ways to end the war? Why are the two choices perpetual war and unilateral surrender? It sounds an awful lot like you want to fight “to the last Ukrainian”, to me.
load more comments
(2 replies)
Ok, but how is supporting a peace deal to facilitate the outcome of russian forces withdrawing a fascist position?
That all depends on what you'd consider to be acceptable terms of a peace deal. Is it a deal that rewards the aggressors for their aggression?
No, the heads of NATO, Ukraine and Russia shouldn't be rewarded for their acts of violence against the people of Russia and Ukraine. All sides should withdraw from the territories in which they are not welcome by the people.
Also Russia didn't invade Ukraine to "gain new territory", do you know when the war started?
(Furthermore its important to clarify that although Russia is a neoliberal hellpit, NATO, using Ukraine as a meat shield for their interests, is way, way worse, literally headed by one of the most evil countries that ever existed: the USA, as such, it is foolish to trust that anything they do in this situation will help the people of Ukraine, including dump military hardware into the region for disposal and testing)
🙄 Yes, we all know Russia started a thinly veiled proxy war in 2014 when the Ukrainian people voted in favor of a western friendly government, and then Russia escalated it into a full blown war when that wasn't getting them the influence over Ukraine that they wanted.
What I don't understand, though, is why a bunch of self proclaimed communists are so in favor of expanding the global influence of a post-fascist government. Aren't communists supposed to be diametrically opposed to fascism? Their wartime Z symbol is essentially a half drawn swastika, like how do you not see it?
Being in favor of China, as they are at least communists in rhetoric, I get. But really, modern day Russia? Marx would be ashamed.
Ukrainian people voted in favor of a western friendly government
Your Ukranian "people":
(its mostly fascist paramilitaries funded by god knows who)
Your "voting":
(there was no democractic referendum held to oust the president)
Also, the west itself is a white supremacist fascist entity who went to Ukraine in 2014 to put pressure on Russia by cutting off potential allies. They are not the good guys.
What I don't understand, though, is why a bunch of self proclaimed communists are so in favor of expanding the global influence of a post-fascist government.
Again, how are peace talks and settling matters via negotiation being "in favor of a fascist government"? Why are you so in favor of expanding the global influence of a fascist organisation (NATO) via the continuation of the war? Why are you opposed to the people of the Donbas being free from the horrors of civil war at the hands of the Ukranian military? Did you know that the majority of people in the Donbas are ethnic russians, and are pro-separatist? Did you know that this is the reason why Ukraine started shelling the fuck out of them and decided to sic their Nazi dogs on them in 2014? Why are you in favor of continuing a bloody war when a mutually beneficial agreement for all sides, even with respect to pre war conditions, can be reached from peaceful negotiation?
Their wartime Z symbol is essentially a half drawn swastika, like how do you not see it?
This is projection, the left has consistently been anti war this entire time, yet liberals are on the side of outright fascists in the ukranian military being given experimental weapons when they are not outright denying they exist.
load more comments
(6 replies)
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
Ah yes, because a war of defense is the same as a war of offence. /S
Helping an ally defend themselves from an aggressor is based
Saying they should fend for themselves is fucked.
We love 2 send working class conscripts to die over lines on a map!
Doesn't matter if they accomplish anything, we indebted their country over our scraps!
load more comments
(2 replies)
The 5 in your username is your age, isn't it?
Time for Hawaii to get a bunch of Abrams and Bradleys.
this but unironically, so that they can decolonise and drive the worldwide terrorist authoritarian yankoid empire from their lands
load more comments
(1 replies)
Maybe they could use them to declare independence from a country that cares more about bombing people overseas than protecting its own
I'm not sure about the US, but the UK is providing arms to Ukraine under bilateral aid agreements. The exact terms of these agreements aren't public, but traditionally bilateral aid agreements heavily favour the country giving, as the country receiving is desperate. Thus, the weapons are not being donated, they are being provided as a long term loan.
It's almost inevitable that Ukraine won't be able to pay back this loan. This means the UK will probably have to write off this debt, eventually. However in the meantime the books can be balanced (or at least it makes it look like the government hasn't raped the country as much as it has) and the write off will be a future government's problem. Also, whatever amount Ukraine will still pay should help ensure the country remains on the back foot, should it survive its invasion from Russia.
No real surprise from a government in bed with Russia over the years leading up and into the invasion.
Suffice it to say, the war machine money printer go brrrr.
Daily reminder to the reminder - the U.S. has to replace those supplies with new stuff which does cost money.
One thing we can do is push for our government to not replace it
Or to not replace it with as much hardware
We've got quite the excessive stockpile currently
C'mon we both know they're gonna spend beaucoup bucks on it, there's nothing the government likes more than military spending
load more comments
(2 replies)
Hexbear tankies invading this post just like their favourite leader invades countries. With large numbers and stupidity.
Oh yeah they are
I was really enjoying 196 as a tankie free zone
I think our rule needs to add hexbear to the list that includes Lemmygrad
view more: next ›