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This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.
Rowan Gavin Paton Menzies (14 August 1937 – 12 April 2020)[1][2][3] was a British submarine lieutenant-commander who authored books claiming that the Chinese sailed to America before Columbus. Historians have rejected Menzies' theories and assertions[4][5][6][7][8]: 367–372 and have categorised his work as pseudohistory.[9][10][11]
The Haida and other native groups of coastal BC have no record of Zheng He's voyage.
And because his ships weren't capable of handling the open ocean, the only way he'd be able to do such a trip is by hugging the coast, so they'd have absolutely seen them.
Mansa Muhammad's travel is also considered to never have reached the Americas, if it even happened in the first place
I'd never heard about this "Zheng He in America" thing before, so I just did a little reading about it. One thing I read said he supposedly sailed around Africa and to the east coast of America, which is even more implausible.
They did sail to Africa. They picked up giraffes and shit and brought them back to China. They intervened in local conflicts like "both of you lose! China wins! Give tribute."
Sure, I'm not saying I doubted that part. The part that apparently doesn't have real evidence and thus seems implausible is the notion that they continued all the way around the Cape of Good Hope and across the Atlantic.
They didnt have to sail to Africa per say. By the time of those trips, there had been a reliable trade network for more than 1500 years stretching from Africa up through the Middle East into India.
I don't doubt that it'd be possible to harbour hop those boats down to Africa, but they only needed to go as far as India/Persia to connect.
They did sail to Africa. It's well documented in primary and secondary sources. They made a map with Africa on it:
Yes, but there is still doubt:
It has also been suggested by J.J.L. Duyvendak and Paul Pelliot that the map may have been partly based on Arab nautical charts.[10]
Except Mali and China's crossing is pure fiction and Polynesia's is plausible but missing a lot of evidence you'd expect to find
Hasn't it been proven that eastern polynesians have amerindian DNA, and also that their word for their crops of sweet potatoes is related to the Quechua word for similar crops still in south america?
Yeah in 1200-1300 not 700AD, but there is some evidence of eariler voyages to South America and Antarctica
Also the DNA is the other way around and also a coin flip as to whether it came from Madagascan slaves after the slave trade or from Polynesians hundreds of years earlier, and the sweet potato is also not hard evidence as it could be coincidence, and there is some evidence of it having spread earlier
However oral history is quite strong in Polynesia and for whatever reason there's no stories of large landmasses to the east, only icy ones to the south
Essentially there's no hard proof like there is with Leif Erikson and Columbus as it was at most a couple of accidental crossings which may not have even been return journeys, but there is a lot of evidence that suggests there was contact of some sort or another
IIRC the oral history could be explained, in that the folks on Rapa Nui were actually not the ones sailing to South America, it was actually the other way around.
Were that the case then South America wouldn't necessarily be documented in an oral history, just visitors from a far away land.
And the reason why Columbus managed to get funding for his journey was because he used incorrect estimations of the earth’s circumference, which indicated a much shorter distance to India than previous (much more accurate) estimations.
Oddly enough it seems the same is true for Mansa's trip. Except that as regent, he gave himself the funding, twice.
However, as wikipedia notes: ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_voyage_of_the_predecessor_of_Mansa_Musa )
In addition. The dark skin of some South Americans is genetically distant to modern Africans, but has ties to the same markers in some asian cultures, implying its addition was prehistoric and happened in the old world.
Not incorrect measurements of the earth's circumference, rather he used incorrect maps that showed Asia as being like 4 times bigger than it actually is, with the Polynesian islands and Japan being a continent sized chain, each at minimum the size of Sardinia
The reason people think he was using an incorrect circumference is because one of his journal entries can be read to either say he was close to mount purgatory, which would have been super far from where he'd have been, or that he believed he was heading in that direction, which to be fair he actually would have been had the mountain existed.
I forget who but someone put it like this, if you asked Columbus for what continent he was on, he'd have been wrong, but if you asked for his coordinates on the earth's surface, he'd have actually been pretty close to accurate.
He knew "where" he was, he just didn't know where that where was.
This is the kind of gold I keep coming back to lemmy for. (no /s)
eaf fhy memes
The Irish have entered the chat...
https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/irish-monk-america.htm
Also, they had potatoes and tomatoes in Gondor long before any of this.
They go extinct in the Fourth Age, I'm 5,753 steps ahead of you -
Joseph Road Rage "It's In My Notes" Tolkien
Columbus was the first catholic to land in America. Guess who wrote our history books.
Bruh, it's because Columbus kicked off the age of colonization that led to the modern world. All other claims to the first discovery are either the initial settlement or largely inconsequential meetings between worlds.
Columbus did not in fact do that, nor is that "the reason" the modern world exists. Broken window fallacy, slaughtering people and generally doing colonialism is not an effective way to create technological progress.
Sooorrrrta, extracting huge piles of wealth off the backs of your colonies is actually a decent way to up the standard of living back home and free up people for higher-tech.
That's not actually what I was arguing though, I was just pointing out that that's the obvious moment that completely changed the fate of the Americas, Europe, and Africa. None of those other contact events had any particular impact on the world. Colombus and the colonial era absolutely did. Good or bad wasn't really my point.
In doing so you sacrifice the wealth and progress of the people you are colonializing. Like I said, broken window fallacy. Slaughtering while cultures doesn't actually as a rule lead to an increase in human wealth or progress towards this future.
And "great person"ing Columbus who was more a bumbling symptom of the colonialist sentiment that already existed is silly. There would have been colonization without him. He's just the face that got to start genocides for Spain in the Americas first.
I'm not the person down voting you, just FYI.
Again, I didn't say this was good, only that it's an obvious turning point in history that lead to the modern world. It wasn't inevitable that we got here from there, but we did, so that's the obvious start.
Beehaw doesn't have nor does it federate down votes, so don't worry. People can be as upset as they want but if they won't engage in discussion to voice it I'll never know.
Relevant meme I just stumbled across...
Mugatu?
Jesus?
No mention of the pharos getting blasted on drugs that are apparently only native to the americas?
I think someone identified the substance in question on a couple of their tooth fragments
To the Core
I just learned a ton honestly