This just sounds like the author thinks masculinity is all negative things.
Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.
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This just sounds like the author thinks masculinity is all negative things.
Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.
I feel like the point is rather that instead of redefining masculinity into something more positive, we should rather deconstruct gender norms in general. Because regardless of masculinity being something "positive" or "negative", it is still an expectation for people to live up to. And eventually people will fail to live up to them. That's why I would say it is preferable to deconstuct gender as a whole, rather than redefining it.
If the goal of the article is to promote agenderism, it goes about it poorly. From the tagline of
It’s perfectly fine to be a “feminine” man. Young men do not need a vision of “positive masculinity.”
Before leading into countless criticisms based purely on a far-right view of masculinity. It takes a rather hostile approach to many people’s identities and falsely attributes a perspective onto it that not everyone shares.
While it would be interesting to live in a world without gender, it’s a very radical change. It would be more prudent to achieve the shorter timeframe goal of eliminating that harmful right wing conceptualisation in the meanwhile.
Not to mention the morality, as we would effectively be erasing people’s experiences, as for many people they do identify as somewhere on a gender spectrum.
Is it okay to say that’s wrong, and they shouldn’t? I don’t know, I can see the merit, but I can also see the oppression in dictating how others live and identify.
There’s also a bit of a colonial attitude issue, can we say tell other cultures (ex. Indigenous) to stop their traditions around gender such as coming of age ceremonies?
Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.
While this is a fine personal metric, I think it ignores the growing social power of the strong man right and the related manosphere subcultures.
It’s unrelated, they are not masculinity.
Just because you don't think so doesn't mean those things haven't had influence on the cultural perception of it.
I understand the desire to separate yourself from those things as an individual. And I don't know what method will work, but simply telling people the "manosphere" just doesn't count isn't going to change anyone's minds.
Saying manosphere bs represents masculinity is like saying TERFs represent feminism.
They’re minority extreme angles on a topic, to the point we give them different names so we know what’s being spoken about because they are not the baseline.
That may be the case but it is not a rebuttal to my point.
Those things have had an influence on the perception of masculinity. And yes, TERFs have had an influence on the perception of feminism. And simply saying they don't count isn't an effective way of countering that influence.
Well it's not a new issue, at all.
It seems like the author cannot reconcile that positive masculinity cannot simultaneously mean to be a good person who has a satisfying, meaningful life.
There is no rule set down in stone for what men have to be like and what women have to be like. I do think there are rules for what people generally ought to be like, and I admire those who display what I consider to be the universal virtues. It’s true that many young men lead lives of quiet desperation. But I don’t see how masculinity has anything to do with the solution to that.
I get the general point that gender roles should be overcome etc, but we're definitely not gonna be able to change anything by ignoring the fact that they exist and influence us on a daily basis.
That makes as much sense as saying trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity.
you left out the "positive" in your analogy:
trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of positive masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity
Of course it makes sense to have a concept of these things, but the point is that it is not helpful to define these things with positive or negative values, but rather to look consider these things independent from one another.
No. Gender Identity isn't zero sum. Things can be positive without other things being negative.
no matter how positively you define a gender role, it will negatively impact those who struggle with conforming to said roles. So I say it is preferable to define masculinity (or gender in general) without any value judgement.
I hate gender roles and assigning anything to them. But everybody deserves a positive view of the traits and ideals they identify with and everybody deserves positive examples of how to express/demonstrate the traits and ideals they identify with.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life. Identifying and identifying with traits you have or aspire to is almost certainly the same, and even if it isn't I have no place to say that someone else shouldn't think about themselves primarily as being a reproductive male (which may be devastating if that's not something they can do), and since that is a common way to see oneself, due to the importance of reproduction or due to culture or due to some aesthetic like which flavors go together, then people identifying with masculinity deserve positive views of it, and positive examples of how to express it.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life
Great analogy here. It's sth that I didn't find the right words to explain for.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender "check boxes", and come down on others to follow them.
Everyone is free to pursue whatever makes them feel happy and whole, so long as that collection of traits does not direct impact other's lives.
Like if my chosen trait is "responsibility and physical fitness", that has no inherent impact on anyone else.
Everyone should be encouraged or coached to pursue what's right for them, not what's right for someone else.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender “check boxes”, and come down on others to follow them.
I think this is precisely what gender roles are supposed to do.
Do young men really pursue masculinity because it truly matches with the people they are or do they do that because of the benefits of being 'masculine'? You'll enjoy respect, authority, a certain sex-appeal, confidence... And if you challenge gender norms you'll experience the opposite. You're gonna be treated more like a women. And that's the reason why masculinity is appealing to young men. And I feel like this is fundamentally problematic. I don't think the individual traits are bad (as you said, responsibility, physical fitness etc), it is the expectations and privileges attached to masculinity.
The broadcast to others is the point I'm targeting.
Keep your own list and enjoy it. Just don't expect it out of others, perhaps aside from your SO, and even that would only be a temporary thing, or a vehicle for discussion about changes in their life.
There is an extreme pressure for boys and men to be masculine. It is like a radio so strong it interferes with any other radio station. There is so much discrimination you face as a 'feminine' man. In this context it feels odd to say 'mind your own business'
My original clearly is describing a goal state.
Edit especially the last line.
Edit.edit beyond that, the comment I replied to was discussing if gender roles can ever be positive. Ever.
To which I provided a scenario where they could. (focused on not imposing that "list" on others)
this was a really funny article to me because the author really doesn't seem that attached to being a man. i want to be clear, that's fine and valid. but it seems weird to then speak to the want of men in general to have more positive role models of masculinity, and say, well you should just want positive role models
like? yeah, you can have role models of any gender, but isn't it nice to have role models who look like you? isn't that the entire point that people make when saying representation is important? that doesn't stop being true just because we're talking about men now
he's missing such a basic and fundamental argument that the entire thing just becomes, at least for me, an externalized argument about how he feels about his own gender, which appears to be disconnected and largely not good
also he picked like, apparently the worst examples of masculinity he could find and said, yeah this is why we don't need positive masculinity?? like c'mon
i like being a man, it's cool. there's a lot (A LOT) of shit i have to reconcile with being a man. but imo that's part of the duty that comes with it. so yeah, author, it would be pretty cool to see men who had done that, who expressed their masculinity in unique and authentic ways that sometimes conform and sometimes don't
you know. like people
(i want to take a moment to say that i have several women role models and also people whose gender identities aren't so easily captured by the binary. but those people, generally speaking, don't need to reconcile with the long history of people of their gender doing harm to those around them, nor with the present day scars from that harm. it's a LOT to come to grips with understanding that you scare a lot of people just by existing, and frankly, that's just an experience that a man is more commonly going to have to experience. exclusively? of course not. obviously, there's a racial bias here as well. but due to the commonality, having readily available examples of how to handle it well, and even gracefully, would be nice)
Sounds like the author thinks we need to change our culture's definition of "masculine." I agree.
I think the author is saying more like: "A positive, specific masculinity may not exist at all"
He may be. I think he’s wrong, but he’s entitled to his opinion.
Or at least that the effort required to construct one is maybe a misguided use of our resources.
It already exists, we don't need to "construct" it?
I’m not a very “masculine” man, I guess. I like flowers, and I wear purple. I sip lattes and my hair is longer than average. I have a trace of a British accent, which makes me sound prissy. I do lift weights at the gym most days, but it certainly hasn’t turned me into the Hulk. When I’m sad, I cry, and when I am delighted, I laugh. I am tender toward animals. Does it add up to being “unmanly”?
If you substitute for black coffee, I fulfill just about all of this criteria.
Based on my limited understanding of what masculinity is supposed to be, he beats me at it.
So he admits to not understanding masculinity, not engaging with it, then stating that it is pointless. Methinks he is threatened by masculinity and thus he tries to claim it is unnecessary or automatically and necessarily harmful on its face. The "essence" of the sexes — masculinity and feminity — have been commercialized, commodified, pulled out by the roots and dipped in a disinfectant solution. I can see this in how every reference to his understanding is hinged on pop stars and movie figures.
What is masculinity? It's a hard term to define because the basic sense of it is so general. How do you describe sight? How do you describe feeling confident? It's not exactly easy to define the sweeping, largest-scale aspects of our lives. I think that masculinity is not set in stone but there are some general, atavistic elements of it that are mostly universal to all men who have those traits, borne necessarily of living in a dangerous world and needing to protect kith and kin:
Women historically often encapsulated the reversal or mirror of many of these traits:
It isn't to say that I don't believe that these traits cross over between the sexes, of course they do, and someone can embody many of these traits and be masculine or feminine.
But people have an essence about them. The reader himself states that he considers himself to be more feminine. I think that it is healthy and normal to recognize one's essence in this manner, and to strive to live in comport with their basic feeling of self. I lived a very feminized life for years and was unhappy with myself. Upon taking on some more masculine traits, I found strength and austerity that I lacked before.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "good masculinity" in the same way there isn't any "good femininity". Gender roles don't need to be redefined, they should be overcome.
Gender is merely an aspect of identity, and expressing your identity in a positive way should not be discouraged
of course it shouldn't! but the problems arise when it becomes some sort of pressure to conform to. A man likes working out, look jacked and have a well combed beard? If he's happy in his body, that is awesome! doesn't mean we should make a role model out of him and encourage others to be like that to. Because a man who wears dresses, knits and is a huge nerd about make-up is equally worthy of feeling happy about himself. If we make any kind of masculinity more 'positive' than the other, we run into problems
It's almost like there are more than two clearly defined expressions of gender
Gender roles don't need to be redefined, they should be overcome.
It's fascinating to me how people blurt statements like this out and then just move on like that settles the issue.
Like we're not living in a gendered world and will continue do so for every single day of our lives.
Even if you think that gender should be abolished as the ultimate goal you have to acknowledge that, in the mean time, boys and young men have to navigate a world that is not blind to gender. And if they are looking for guidance on how to do that and you're just sticking your head in the sand, they will get their answers from people who give them what they're looking for. Even if those answers are terrible.