Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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This just sounds like the author thinks masculinity is all negative things.
Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.
I feel like the point is rather that instead of redefining masculinity into something more positive, we should rather deconstruct gender norms in general. Because regardless of masculinity being something "positive" or "negative", it is still an expectation for people to live up to. And eventually people will fail to live up to them. That's why I would say it is preferable to deconstuct gender as a whole, rather than redefining it.
If the goal of the article is to promote agenderism, it goes about it poorly. From the tagline of
Before leading into countless criticisms based purely on a far-right view of masculinity. It takes a rather hostile approach to many people’s identities and falsely attributes a perspective onto it that not everyone shares.
While it would be interesting to live in a world without gender, it’s a very radical change. It would be more prudent to achieve the shorter timeframe goal of eliminating that harmful right wing conceptualisation in the meanwhile.
Not to mention the morality, as we would effectively be erasing people’s experiences, as for many people they do identify as somewhere on a gender spectrum.
Is it okay to say that’s wrong, and they shouldn’t? I don’t know, I can see the merit, but I can also see the oppression in dictating how others live and identify.
There’s also a bit of a colonial attitude issue, can we say tell other cultures (ex. Indigenous) to stop their traditions around gender such as coming of age ceremonies?
I don't think that is necessary. What we should do is to detach gender from any form of judgement or expectation. There is this feminist, liberal idea of how a modern man should be like, act like, feel like - but at the end of the day it is still maintaining the concept that men have some sort of role to fulfill. That it is what bothers me about gender expectations: you are supposed to be in a certain way just because of the sex you were born with/the gender you appear to be. And no matter how you want to (re)define it, you're always going to have people who won't feel comfortable in these categories.
What exactly is the colonial attitude supposed to be? This discussion seems to focus on western ideas around gender?
first of all, I really apreciate your comment is thematically consistent with your username. checks out!
I never said otherwise! gender and identity is fine, and people should live and express themselves however they feel the happiest with.
I am specifically not doing that. gender is not tied to sex. I think you really miss my point here. I think that men should be free of any gender expectation. People should be able to identify themselves without having to meet any expectations imposed by society.
I quite literally advocate for the opposite - gender does not (intrinsically) mean anything for one's personality.
While this is a fine personal metric, I think it ignores the growing social power of the strong man right and the related manosphere subcultures.
It’s unrelated, they are not masculinity.
Just because you don't think so doesn't mean those things haven't had influence on the cultural perception of it.
I understand the desire to separate yourself from those things as an individual. And I don't know what method will work, but simply telling people the "manosphere" just doesn't count isn't going to change anyone's minds.
Saying manosphere bs represents masculinity is like saying TERFs represent feminism.
They’re minority extreme angles on a topic, to the point we give them different names so we know what’s being spoken about because they are not the baseline.
That may be the case but it is not a rebuttal to my point.
Those things have had an influence on the perception of masculinity. And yes, TERFs have had an influence on the perception of feminism. And simply saying they don't count isn't an effective way of countering that influence.
Well it's not a new issue, at all.
For a lot of folks Trump is representation of masculinity. I think it's something worth reflecting on.