this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2024
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The French National Assembly on Thursday unanimously adopted a bill aimed at restricting the manufacture and sale of products containing per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances — also known as PFAS or “forever chemicals.” The MPs, backed by the government, voted to exclude kitchen utensils from the scope of the text.

Thanks to an intense lobbying push, manufacturers of frying pans and saucepans — including the SEB group, which owns Tefal — are exempt from this ban under the proposed law penned by French Green MPs.

Majority groups initially tried to delay the ban on kitchen utensils until 2030 — a timetable refused by the French Green MPs who instead suggested an exemption until 2026.

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[–] [email protected] 264 points 8 months ago (27 children)

Sounds great, let's ban it in every form except the one we literally eat...

[–] [email protected] 52 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Actually it's in a lot of food wrappers.

And those aren't as durable as cooking utensils. If you don't scratch your pan with a metal fork and don't use it for two decades, it's apparently somewhat safe. Not according to the companies, I'm not shilling, Last Week Tonight had a point about it on their episode about PFA's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU

I'd personally love to not consume any fucking PFAS, but I also understand that this French thing is still a massive step forwards for regulations on the matter.

Tldr it's still a win

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That stuff sticks to (aka reacts with) literally nothing. That's the point of it. The whole innovation of nonstick cookware was the fact they got it to stick to something. It’s not even dangerous if you ingest it, it doesn’t react with anything so it just comes back out.

What IS dangerous is the by products and intermediate products, as well as the stuff that comes off if you overheat it. (And also, like you said, when they get old)

This whole movement against non-stick is alright, but so many people do it for the wrong reasons. If you have nonstick, just use it and don’t buy nonstick next time. Throwing away perfectly fine cookware like that is like boycotting charmin by flushing down all your remaining rolls in one go and going to the store to buy new toilet paper from another brand.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

so it just comes back out.

Eh... does it?

https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-how-long-hazardous-forever-chemicals-pfas-stay-in-blood-2023-3

It can take five hours for your body to filter half the amount of caffeine or alcohol you've consumed from your blood. LSD is a bit faster at three hours.

BPA has a similar half-life to caffeine and alcohol, but arsenic can take up to 10 hours.

Toxic metals like lead or radioactive polonium, take months to halfway leave your blood.

But PFAS surpass all of these other substances. Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It's no wonder they're called "forever chemicals."

I still use my non-sticks, but like you said, I'm gonna buy non-PFAS cookware the next time I need to. I'm in no panic about my pans. What people probably should pay more attention to is PFAS in clothing. This might be a tad sensationalist as The Guardian often is, but eh, with a grain of salt: https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2023/jul/02/fashion-chemicals-pfas-bpa-toxic

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (11 children)

Yes, the final product comes back out. The final product is PTFE, not PFAS. PTFE is harmless unless degraded or overheated (which is why you shouldn’t do that with non-stick cookware).

To produce PTFE, PFAS are used (or are intermediaries in the process), which is why the production is dangerous, but the product isn’t.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

[...] and don't use it for two decades, [...]

You mean that a pan has to age? Or is it a burn.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

My point was that when the pan gets old and the non-stick parts starts going, you shouldn't still keep it for 10 years afterwards.

It's a pretty common thing I've seen, people not bothering to buy new pans when old ones get worn out.

So if one is trying to avoid exposure, keep your pans in good shape

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

It read like we should age the pans before use like a fine wine. But this makes way more sense.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Careful what you wish for. PTFE is used in liners of a lot of life saving catheters. The stuff that goes I side your heart and brain and saves your life...

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

Its about finding alternatives. Right now there is an immense economic & lobby pressure to not pursue finding alliterative materials.

PTFE is super cheap to produce & is sold with high margins. Financially would be basically impossible to fund research for alternative material, produce it without economies of scale, compete in a saturated market, etc.

Cases like this is exactly why we need representatives of the people to act & pass laws.

Its like with plastic (one use?) products, the mantra was "nothing can be as good as plastic" and it took the market no time to produce better products without plastic. But there is a lot of push back, eg there is absolutely no need for paper straws to get soggy (we have the tech) yet you mostly see only the shitty kind.

Or the example of paper industry, they had the interest to ditch plastic and they did to an extend. Those little transparent windows in envelopes are super cheap cellulose, but a decade ago they were plastic.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I have PTFE and PVDF in my body and I am happy about that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yes this and a hernia mesh. Guess there will come more.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

You're just slowly turning into a cyborg.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Meh. It's not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as the non-stick surface starts to show signs of scraping...

If you want to avoid this problem altogether you can just buy cast iron or enameled pans. But enamel is a lot stickier (and heavier) than teflon

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The problem is that non-stick has been marketed heavily to the point that the majority of cheap pans are non-stick, even though there's many purposes they're not suitable for. For example they shouldn't be used for high heat cooking, but how many people don't know that? And they're extremely toxic if the surface is chipped. Using the wrong utensils on the can chip them. Plus, there's a number of pans out there that make it look like they're a different material, but actually it's just the same thing rebranded. So even if people are using them wrong, it's very understandable why someone who's a casual cook wouldn't realize that they're endangering themselves by using the pans wrong.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

Yeah believe me I know all about that. My dad is a materials scientist and has been rambling about us eating Teflon for a few decades now. Using metal utensils with the non stick pans is one of the few ways to truly get yelled at in my parents' house

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Adding carbon steel to this, because I love my pan, and my mother-in-law (who lives to cook) can use it without arthritis pain. She always used to complain about the cast iron hurting her joints when she lifted our other pans.

What I'm also curious about is the ceramic coated pans. I've seen them advertised (I think Green Pan, whatever). I would like a lighter alternative to Le Crouset that I could cook acidic foods in.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

I’m somewhat curious as well, but that’s when I reach for stainless over cast iron. There’s a balance there: I think some people overreact when usually cooking acidic stuff is no problem. Of course I also don’t cook long simmering stuff like pasta sauce so I don’t need to pay much attention.

I do also use a crock pot, which is ceramic and has at least some overlap with long cooking acidic foods that may be tainted by stainless or cast iron

I only know what I’ve read online about ceramic:

  • generally very safe and non-reactive
  • almost as non-stick as non-stick
  • a few cheap Chinese knockoffs leached metals but this really shouldn’t be a problem
  • harder to damage with utensils than non-stick
  • however they don’t last longer, may even be shorter.

My decision was based on wanting something more permanent so I didn’t have to buy it again, and it’s nice to be able to rediscover metal utensils

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

It’s not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as …

Yeah, I was also in no panic but

  • it’s not that dangerous in the short term, but it stays long term and long term accumulation is still unknown
  • toxic waste during manufacture is dangerous - let’s just not do that
  • I was annoyed having to replace the non-stick every ten years or so. It may be cheap to buy but it’s expensive over time
  • no one follows through with tossing as 🔜 as there are signs of damage or flaking. Pretty much all of us have eaten more Teflon than we should and keep adding more and more

So now I have good stainless and cast iron for about the same price but it could potentially last the rest of my life: reducing toxic chemicals from manufacturing, reducing the amount of forever chemicals accumulating in my body, and saving me money. Even better, by paying attention to the quirks of effective use of these pans, I’ve become a better cook and find the cleanup usually no worse than non-stick

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