this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
446 points (86.0% liked)

News

23014 readers
7 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

The most famous forms of Holocaust denial and revisionism tend to focus on Jews, casting doubt, for example, on how many were exterminated in the camps. But denying the impact the Nazis had on the other groups they targeted, including queer and trans people, disabled people and Romani people, is still Holocaust denial. Maybe someone should tell J.K. Rowling.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 77 points 8 months ago (7 children)

Ok, fellas: the intention of the author is inaccessible, the intention of the work can be interpreted, her public persona is that of a transphobe who always finds new lows to fall to in her brigade. You can still read HP and recognize that she is a shitty person.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Pro tip: used book sales do not generate royalties. I bought the full set of HP from a local used bookstore with no guilt.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Acquiring a copy on the open ocean also provides no royalties.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Sure but used book stores are great, you can find some weird shit sometimes. Serisously I once found an old ass copy of dianetics in the sci-fi section, old lady running the place found it great that I got her little joke.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

That's a great point. I've found treasures I'd never have found otherwise in used bookstores.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That she put it into sci-fi and not religion. According to her it made atleast one pissant angry.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Ok, I also looked it up and it's clearer now, thanks

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

This is good advice

[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I will wait until she dies so she can't profit from it. I know it's a drop in the bucket but it's my drop.

She had a choice. Her Twatter account could have just been happy stuff about Harry Potter. She repeatedly choose to create this situation. So fuck her she isn't getting a cent from me.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago
[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Same. As a cys person I stand in solidarity with You ... Feck that Bitch... Feck her and Dave Chappelle, Joe Rogan ETC

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Is Joe Rogan transphobic? It would be entirely unsurprising, I already hated him because he was constantly putting air into the Alt Right.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

If he isn't already, I think he would be within five minutes if anyone talked him into it

[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago (2 children)

My kids are trans/have trans friends and they square this circle by believing that "J.K. Rowling" is Danny Devito's pen name

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

Damn, the kids ARE alright. That's awesome.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

I would pay oodles to read Doanne Dathleen Rowling's version of events.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It's also possible for someone to be a shitty person and a shitty author. There are tons of discussions on just how badly written HP is and that would be true even if she suddenly stopped being a horrible person.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

Yeah, 1-4 are fun “monster of the week” kids book with worldbuilding that falls apart if you look at it too much. 5-7 have “George Lucas” syndrome - editors couldn’t say “no” anymore. The Horcruxes and the Deathly Hallows were clearly last minute ass pulls.

Idk I read a lot of similar quality YA when I was a child. I don’t get the obsession.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

I hate her much as the next guy but the books are really good don't act like they are not there is a reason why they are famous. If you don't like her but still likes her work just pirate it .

[–] jeremyparker 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

That's kind of an individual thing. Like, I get it, I get what you're saying, but, when I think about the books (which I used to love), I just didn't think of them fondly anymore; I can't think of any of those characters without that irritation and disappointment coming up.

I was super excited about having my kids read those books -- and my oldest started the series, but then needed a break to mature a little before hitting book..3 I think? Idr. And now I just don't really care whether they read them. (If they do choose to read them on their own, I won't tell them about JKR until after they've finished them.)

However I have no problem setting aside the shittiness of Knut Hamsun or Henry Miller; I still really enjoy their books. Heidegger? Too shitty for me. Picasso: meh, he's fine.

That's My Hot Take: if it bothers you, acknowledge that, and don't force yourself to be uncomfortable. But also don't shame people for whom her toxicity is something they can set aside.

(As long as they are setting it aside and not enjoying the work because of her toxicity.)

That said: pirate her shit, you don't need to give her money.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I can't listen to many bands I used to listen because their members turned out to be really shitty people.

I mean, if I have to hone my skills at slap.bass in a rock context, Flea is my go-to choice, but Anthony Kiedis boasted about having sex with an underage girl and regularly dates girls 40 years younger than him, that soured the whole RHCP thing for me.

In short, my ethical and moral principles are worth more than aesthetic enjoyment.

[–] jeremyparker 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Ethics are interesting because you can ignore them. It's like, ethics exist within you regardless of whether you agree to them; if you don't listen to that little voice, it gets easier and easier to ignore it. To put that in practical terms: murdering someone is pretty ethically difficult. Murdering a second time is less ethically difficult. It's like we build a climate around ourselves; the more you listen to your ethical beliefs, the more repugnant the idea of ignoring them becomes.

That said, I'm not sure I'm on board with you on RHCP -- but that's maybe just me. I used to listen to them a lot in jr high (I'm old) when blood sugar sex magic had just come out. And while your opinion is totally valid, for me, like, I never thought he was much of an ethical role model. His lyrics are pretty misogynistic. (And, not great regardless, from a "objective artistic/poetic" perspective.) So like yeah he's not a great person, but he never pretended to be, so to find out he isn't doesn't change much.

(As opposed to, say, Jowling Kowling Rowling, who used to talk about hating bigotry, but then turned out to be a super terrible bigot.)

Flea, on the other hand -- I've never looked into him. I'm also a bassist and his influence on my bass education is so deep that I'm afraid to find out if he's toxic lol. But he's been in a band with Anthony Keidis for like 40 years, so, he's probably not perfect.

(I'm not a slap or funk bassist, but what I learned from Flea was how to feel it. You can't play Flea's bass lines mechanically, they literally don't sound correct; you have to feel the vibe, the groove has to move your fingers, not the time signature. That dude, ffs I hope he's not an asshole, because he's fucking incredible.)

Though IDK -- after long careers together, from what I understand, people tend to see each other less.

For example, after the whole Me Too thing started, I heard an interview with Bob Weinstein, Harvey's brother, the two of them started Miramax together and were basically partners. But he knew his brother was a piece of shit, and, at that time a few years ago, hadn't actually spoken to him in "many years." He didn't dwell on the topic, he just said that, basically, and his tone was like, obviously disgusted, but he didn't want to spend the time talking about that, so he didn't.

He wasn't exactly going to snitch his own brother into prison, and that's asking a bit too much imo, but it shows ethical strength to not slip into that same kind of toxicity, especially when it's so close to you, and probably so easy.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I gotta say, I'm dealing with cognitive dissonance right now. I remember having bookmarked her Harvard commencement speech and listening to it from time to time, admiring the principles and standing up for the good of all people. I felt someone who wrote those books would HAVE to have a keen understanding of right from wrong and fighting the good fight.

So these recent years with her position on this have been confusing and sad for me. I hope she grows and learns from this.

Also unpopular opinion but I stumbled across this article from OP's source which I largely agree with: https://forward.com/culture/480388/please-shut-up-about-the-harry-potter-jew-goblins-antisemitism-jk-rowling/

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (15 children)

In her mind she IS fighting for "right vs wrong". She's just REALLY fucking wrong about which side is "right". One of the biggest things I've learned in life is that EVERYONE thinks that they're the hero. That they're doing good and the "others" are the bad guys. Rowling is a piece of a shit but she THINKS she's the good guy and that's the most dangerous part of all.

load more comments (15 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago

On your link there, I'm sorry to say the author is making a very silly argument. It boils down to 'if you see a specific race in this racist caricature then you're the real racist'. This would only be true if racist caricatures were a new thing never seen before. It's akin to saying 'oh i didn't mean black people when i screamed the n- word. You're the racist for thinking the n- word refers to black people'.

That's an extreme example but you see my point that there's a history that's being ignored.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I disagree. The Potter goblins are diminutive, hooknosed, saurian creatures, with creepy long fingers and crafty natures. They have exceptional financial skills and stop at nothing to acquire or protect money and precious objects. It is antisemitic that anyone would encounter such a character and think: “Aha, a Jew!”

No, ~~John~~ Jon Stewart looked at the Harry Potter goblins and saw an offensive Jewish caricature. As an ethnically Jewish trans woman I agree with him. Rowling's goblins and her Holocaust denial are harmful. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan too, so I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying her content or even paying for content. I of course appreciate when people avoid those things. Profits from her games, books and movies go to funding anti-trans causes which make her content harmful. All I ask is that when Rowling does something harmful, like Holocaust denial or fund anti-trans causes people agree that what she is doing and her content is harmful.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/harry-potter-author-jk-rowling-faces-backlash-over-donations-to-group-challenging-transgender-rights/ar-BB1iw90J

The author once again attracted attention after donating $97,000 to For Women Scotland. The funds are earmarked for a legal challenge set to be heard in the UK Supreme Court. The objective of the lawsuit is to redefine the word "woman" such that it applies exclusively to cisgender women. The proposed redefinition stands to harm transgender women who have undergone gender-affirming procedures. Rowling publicly supported her donation, stating: "You know how proud I am to know you. Thank you for all your hard work and tenacity. This truly is a historic case."

LGBTQ+ activists are warning that redefining the word "woman" paves the way for discrimination and prejudice against transgender or non-binary individuals.

edit: Jon not John

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

To be clear, Jon Stewart later clarified:

I do not think J.K. Rowling is anti-Semitic. I did not accuse her of being anti-Semitic. I do not think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-Semitic.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

To be clear, Jon Stewart later clarified:

I do not think J.K. Rowling is anti-Semitic. I did not accuse her of being anti-Semitic. I do not think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-Semitic.

~~John~~ Jon Stewart said the goblins are an offensive Jewish caricature. None of these statements contradict each other. The point is, no one looked at the goblins and thought they were Jews as the author of Please shut up about the Harry Potter Jew-goblins suggests. It is not antisemitic to point out that the goblins are collectively an offensive Jewish caricature. edit: typo, https://www.adl.org/spelling-antisemitism-vs-anti-semitism, typo, Jon not John

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

None of these statements contradict each other.

I didn't say they were, but I do think it's an important distinction because the entire purpose of highlighting this in context of J.K. Rowling is to accuse her of explicit antisemitism. Whereas Jon (not John) continued to write:

“tropes [like the goblins bankers] are so embedded in society that they're basically invisible.”

This means, indeed, that two things can be true at the same time: Rowling subconsciously used a Jewish caricature (as did Tolkien before her), and (2) Rowling is not Antisemitic.

Many people -- not you, necessarily -- equate the two.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Nowhere in my argument did I say Rowling was antisemitic. I said her goblins are harmful.

Rowling’s goblins and her Holocaust denial are harmful.

It really doesn't matter if she did it intentionally or not, it's harmful regardless.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Perhaps; though that's not a reflection of her -- but as Stewart points out society as a whole and the power we give to racist stereotypical tropes in the first place -- it's a convenient target for those who are already looking to hate on her for other more substantive reasons.

On a separate note, do you not think it's a stretch to lump her in with holocaust deniers this quickly? Isn't it a little too soon to categorize her lack of understanding that the concept of trans or books being burned occurred under nazis versus those who deny millions were murdered in general? If anything, doesn't that water-down the category of Holocaust Deniers?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Doesn't anyone who actively tries to defend literal Nazis by saying "wait wait guys the Nazis weren't THAT bad" https://www.thedailybeast.com/jk-rowling-adds-holocaust-denialism-to-her-transphobia warrent like....an immediate "this fucker is insane" thing? I mean if you're trying to defend someone who is trying to defend WW2 Nazis I think you're in the wrong camp is all

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

society as a whole and the power we give to racist stereotypical tropes in the first place

Ignoring racist stereotypes in fiction isn't the solution. We should want to do better.

On a separate note, do you not think it’s a stretch to lump her in with holocaust deniers this quickly?

No. Holocaust denial is holocaust denial. It's never too early to call it out.

Isn’t it a little too soon to categorize her lack of understanding that the concept of trans or books being burned occurred under nazis versus those who deny millions were murdered in general?

No. Valuable research was lost that could have benefited millions of people. Not to mention trans people were killed by the Nazis. The fact millions of Jews were killed does not diminish the harm in denying that other groups were targeted by the Nazis.

If anything, doesn’t that water-down the category of Holocaust Deniers?

Although Jews were the group who had the most causalities, the Holocaust affected many different groups of people. Denying any part of the Holocaust is harmful and calling that out in no way diminishes the seriousness of Holocaust denial.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/mosaic-of-victims-an-overview

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Holocaust-Facts-and-Figures

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/new-research-reveals-how-the-nazis-targeted-transgender-people-180982931/

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I appreciate the sources and acknowledge everyone from Jews to Communists to Gypsies, LGBTQ, to the Handicapped and so forth were ostracized, discriminated upon, and murdered by the Nazis. What I note does not detract from that; merely to say that someone not recognizing what is frankly not a mainstream fact about the Holocaust does not make them a holocaust denier; it may make them holocaust illiterate. So I mean it's good to be proactive with this stuff but it's also important to give people the chance to take a step back and give people a way out instead of compelling them to become what you repeatedly label them as. Reading too much into a single tweet when there -- to my knowledge -- hasn't been a response or clarification from Rowling -- is jumping the gun. I admire the confidence in your convictions but I don't agree with your conclusions.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Despite your argument's insistence to the contrary nowhere in my argument do I accuse Rowling of being anything. Whether or not Rowling is ignorant is irrelevant. Her actions are what matter. When presented with new information about the Holocaust her response was not to become more informed, but to deny the information. That is Holocaust denial and it is harmful. edit: typos

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago

Reading the article after playing Hogwarts Legacy gives me a slightly different feeling about that last paragraph...

Still a good article though.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

But HP is a shitty story with questionable moral lessons.