this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2023
325 points (92.7% liked)
Technology
58133 readers
4709 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It's not a company, it is the CCP. There's is a massive difference, both in terms of what the organizations can access and the warrant requirements at the governmental level. I'm getting really tired of having to explain the difference in privacy rights concerning governments and private institutions. It's just like freedom of speech or religion. It has everything to do with private vs public institutions.
You don't think Meta, Google etc are passing data to the American government?
They will comply with any court order. They won’t hand over unfettered access like TikTok has to in China.
You think the American government is as bad as the CCP in this regard?
Considering the CCP can't arrest Americans but the US government can, it makes no sense to be more afraid of china on a personal level.
And that is exactly what the Ukrainians thought about Russia. These are all actions intended to gain an edge to enable a potential future conflict. They are acting like it. We should too. War in the South China Sea is something everyone should be afraid of.
That would be a very convincing arguement if China bordered the US.
Very American of you. Americans felt the same way about the Japanese until 1941. Then it was about control of the newly important resource of oil.
Lmao no japanese soldier set foot on the continent of north America dude
Not only is that factually false with them invading Alaska, it's like you're saying that you'd be okay with another world war because we would win in the end. I would personally prefer to deter one which this effort is a part of.
I'd be OK with another World War against Russia, sure. They can't even beat Ukraine lol
China will not engage in war with the US because it would obliterate their economy.
People said the same thing about Russia. Politics play a massive part.
I'm not sure I can respect the argument if someone who's play with a world war as long as they can access a single social media site. You obviously are expecting to not be the one fighting it.
Russia is similarly not a threat to the US. I agree with the people who said that.
I won't be fighting said war, but my son almost certainly would. I feel confident that it won't happen and more than he'll get eaten by a bear next time we go camping.
Some fears aren't worth entertaining.
One of the things that best prevents a conflict is deterrence. That is what this is. By not deterring, you make conflict more likely. It is absolutely worth entertaining and we do all the time. That is why you have such confidence that it won't happen. They are not a threat because we actively deter them from becoming one.
Banning TikTok is not a deterrent. Having a big navy is a deterrent.
Information dominance is our single greatest advantage in the West and has been since WWII. Code breakers did more to win in Europe than any bombing campaign alone and the Battle of Midway would not have been won otherwise. It is why Ukraine is doing so well to this day. Numbers only go so far.
TikTok does not grant information dominance unless our government is dumb enough to pull a Russia and allow deployed soldiers in combat zones to post on TikTok, which I sincerely doubt.
Always on location enables machine learning models to be developed on movement. This applies to troop movements, critical civilian infrastructure, and maximizing civil disruption. Always on audio enables the fully automated development of models that sound just like you enabling fake orders to be developed, propaganda, and misinformation at an individual user level. Always on video enables the mapping of military bases and threat profiling. Access to biometric data enables readiness assessments. Combinations of all of the above enable the development of combined information warfare which has not been possible yet.
All of this has literally already been done, just not at scale yet but they are actively working on it. This is real and why we are working to deter it. It is no longer about individual networks anymore.
If it applies to troop movements, our military failed at basic infosec. If it applies to civilian movements outside of wartime, it's useless information, since the US is very easy to map logistically.
All of this has been done, you're right - in like 1812.
The only thing I can do at this point is to encourage you to trust that warfare has indeed changed in the last 200 years and that we (somewhat) know what we are doing at a strategic level.
I'm quite aware of how warfare has changed, as is clearly evident from my posting so far.
You've yet to articulate an actual threat TikTok's data harvesting has on the civilian populace. We agree about military/government security protocols.
One of the clearest takeaways from the Ukraine conflict is how little the Russian MOD will regard civilian protections. We've also seen the same thing with the PLA. War is an extension of politics. If they can use tools to disrupt civilian life and logistics, they will if it means delaying a military response on the Taiwanese island by weeks. That is their goal. Using information warfare also makes it more likely that they can disrupt us enough without attacking our military. This makes an attack on Taiwan more likely, not less.
In terms of an actual threat, I detailed several ways that they can use the data to develop models of behavior and highly individualize it. It is combining the models and access with traditional and recently developed propaganda techniques that effects can be coordinated. Think of it more like traditional cyber warfare but much more effective and about combining individual actions. One person flushing a toilet does not do much but a whole town at the same time can create an issue.
Additionally, civilians are allowed on military bases. We are not in the habit of banning phone software at gate entries. There's no way to keep it out realistically speaking. Children have phones at home and largely follow their parents. With that level of data access and a 40+% marketshare, there is no escaping a CCP sensor at any given point now when you go out in public. It really does not take that much data to develop an information model and the more data we give them, the more accurate they will be.
That is just the short-term uses of the data. China now has data to use against future people with security clearances, politicians, and industry leadership that will aid their intelligence services for generations.
You're retreading ground weve covered but keep mentioning an "information model" bogeyman that you have not yet clarified as a threat.
Our difference of opinion is due to me not seeing that as a credible threat. Can you address that specifically?
I cannot go into too much detail on a public forum but it makes traditional cyber warfare and information warfare much more effective and targeted. Machine Learning models can identify exactly the types of information, true or not, that are more likely to radicalize you and incite action at the intended moment. It takes the conversation from demographics to individualized and targeted propaganda. It then can be used to predict outcomes and effects based on location data, provide real-time feedback, and ensure that all of the individualized effects happen at the exact moment you need them to. For a real-world example that was not an attack, look at the 2014 Atlanta snowstorm. Individually, all of the problems were solvable. When the effects were combined at the same time, you had a complete collapse of public services and society for days.
These models are not possible with only API access.
You quite simply are not going to get a specific answer on this because it would reveal methods and techniques.
People have a right to consume propaganda if they like, though. I'm not sure how this is a unique threat.
If people are susceptible to propaganda, by problem is with the people, not the service providers
Yes, yes I do. Also the CCP can't ruin my life, unlike Uncle Sam. Deciding which one is more evil is irrelevant.
Well, the majority of Americans disagree with you per this article. A world war with China absolutely would ruin a lot of lives. I cannot even comprehend how you could come to the conclusion otherwise.
The majority of americans are fuckin stupid and believe whatever their TV programming tells them to believe.
Who said anything about war?? I'm staying "in this regard", which is about privacy and data being taken and used by a government. Outside of that context yes I think the CCP is absolutely worse than the US in just about every category. There's no question there.
Read the title of this thread again. This thread is about if TikTok is a threat to national security. This thread is about war.
That's not what I was responding to but in any case, no, I don't think tiktok is a threat to national security or going to cause a war. This is FUD.
It's not about the CCP. It's because kids watch TikTok and then don't like conservatives
I am not inherently conservative but I am involved in the defense space and I could not disagree with this take more strongly. It 100% is about the CCP. Don't try to make this a partisan issue. It is not.
It is absolutely a partisan issue because that's why Republicans brought it up in the first place. The CCP gathering metadata on users has no bearing on our ability to beat them at sea, which is the only sphere of influence that matters with Chinese aggression.
Should US military bases ban TikTok? Sure. Should the government block the app on all government phones, also sure. Banning social media wholesale is a disgusting precedent to set, and is fundamentally anti-American.
There is precedent in banning spyware. So, what is your reason for why the current administration wants to ban it? You cannot provide any proof for your claim outside of conjecture. There are no records and it doesn't even make sense in the current political climate.
Unless you can prove TikTok is spyware and not just gathering user data per already accepted guidelines then you have no leg to stand on here.
They have the access to the data on your device and the CCP has been accessing it at scale according to former employees. You are not going to find a government record out of the CCP like you would in the US.
ByteDance has lied on multiple occasions about their security protocols and only fess up when they are caught.
The CCP according to their own bylaws do not see chinese companies as private. It is literally the definition of a fascist government system.
This is not including what the intelligence services know which is undoubtedly more extensive. Something tells me you wouldn't believe them one way or another but they do not come out with things as specific as this without cause and it certainly is not partisan.
Not a problem for me or any other sane person
As for the CCP bylaws, I'm all for the Chinese overthrowing their hell-gov and instituting liberal democracy but until they do, it's a non-factor.
Folks just won't get it until it hurts you and your families. By then it will be too late and they will have already invaded Taiwan. They want to generate video and audio models of you. They want to use those against your family and for propaganda purposes. They want to ensure they know where you are at all times to gain maximum impact when they do. It's not insanity. It's what they are actively trying to do.
Lmao well if they're trying to feed me propaganda they're fucking up because all I'm seeing is standup comedians, thicc goth girls, and Taylor swift clips, along with some of the best old-school-youtube content still on the internet.
Are you even on TikTok?
Edit: also China won't invade Taiwan because the Chinese armed forces are as embarrassing as the Russian armed forces.
I am absolutely not on the platform in any way.
Why would you underestimate them? They are in a similar manufacturing position as the US was before WWII. They have stated when they want to invade in their national security strategy document. They have also said how they want to do it which includes a significant code breaking and informational dominance component. They are doing what they said they would do. They are getting away with everything we allow them to get away with. This is a decision we are making right now. Are we okay with them having complete knowledge of everything that every western citizen does, from location, to social connections, to enough fine tuned data to build exact replicas digitally of their persona. They don't get that with existing western digital media apis.
Yes I'm OK with them having into from TikTok because they are not a real threat.
Well, the entire DOD and national security apparatus disagrees with you about them being a threat. I am sure you know more about threat assessments.
I 100% support the banning of TikTok on government devices, which was the DoD's initial suggestion. Republican congressional leaders then expanded this threat window to the average American.
No foreign apps should ever be allowed on US Gov phones, and very few domestic apps should be allowed. That's just basic infosec.
But the average people don't matter? Does the government have a responsibility to protect civilian networks the same as they do the rest of our critical infrastructure? Does it matter that 44% of US phones have now become always-on sensors for the PLA? Look again at the headline. It is not asking about you, but about national security as a whole.
The United States may as well be a continent-wide fortress. It's not that citizen security doesn't matter so much as the threat to civilians is negligible.
The most dangerous goal of the CCP with TikTok is spreading anti-Western and anti-capitalist sentiment. Democracy will survive that just fine. The kids are OK.