this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2024
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Blessed are those that plant trees for the shade they will never see.
This mentality is why we are in the position we are today. If we all fail to try to build a better future today the next generation will suffer more than us and it will be our fault then.
Yeah blame the victims...
For making more victims? Yes. Fuck em. Being fucked over by the previous generation does not give you the right to fuck over the next generation.
The only victim of not having a retirement plan is yourself, surely. And for everything else... Genuinely what are we supposed to do? It's impossible not to feel powerless today because despite all the efforts we go to, everything seems to be going more and more wrong with time. The far right is taking over and setting fire to the world for fuel. Alone no matter what noble actions I might take as an individual are meaningless, and even if by some miracle I manage, along with my fellow Brits, to vote in the progressive government of my dreams... Is that going to stop America's swing to the right? Or China's mega industrialization and carbon output?
Look, for the sake of me and the younger people here in the UK I won't stop trying, you aren't wrong that we shouldn't, but I'm also sick of people blaming the crushed and despondent people of the world for their own situation.
The conversation is also about a) the likelihood that when (surprise surprise) the world does not end and these people have no retirement savings, they will demand public assistance funded via higher taxes on younger working people. And b) the idea of not taking action to make the world better, out of a sense of hopelessness and frankly laziness.
Seems to be but isn't.
Helplessness is propaganda. You are being lied to by people who want you to feel this way.
You can start doing your part in the easiest way possible: argue against and shut down Russian propagandists on this very site trying to convince Americans not to vote for Biden. That's an important job if saving the world is your goal. Forums and social media are battlegrounds of ideas, and you can be a soldier in the army of truth and good.
We aren't asking for tax payers money to take care of us in the way you're thinking. We are asking for universal basic needs. For the young and the old. Healthcare, housing, etc. To move past capitalism. Especially since we are already seeing the issues popping up. People are already starting to work later in life to pay the bills. We are already seeing a surge in elderly homelessness. Of people not being able to pass down anything in inheritance because they have health issues and need to stay in a facility which takes everything from them.
We aren't waiting to say "Now that we are older take care of us"
We are currently saying the system is broken now.
Sure, but that's a slightly separate issue than the people who could save, choose not to, and then demand taxpayer money to make up the difference.
Ph yeah, no, I agree with that part. But the part about people waiting till they're old and then demanding. That part is something we are doing now. We just want people to be taken care of in general. It shouldn't have to be a worry for anyone of any age.
But I do agree that those who are lucky enough to be able to save should save. Cause even if shit gets crazy, having something to help you will be better than living in an apartment with nothing. Either way it's a win.
Who is doing this? This seems like a made up scenario. I don't know how retirement works in the US but here everyone gets a state pension, as long as they have paid taxes for a certain number of years. It's not much, imo it should be enough to live on regardless of the mistakes you make in your youth... I think we should all have the freedom to splash out when young and still retire, whatever the reason. I mean while, yes, the money technically comes from present day taxpayers, you paid your taxes in the past to pay for the last generation(s) of retirees... It works out.
In the US there's a form of state pension, but it's not enough to live on. The expectation is that you save for your own retirement.
I think you can just about survive on a state pension here but, yknow, you might not make it many winters because you won't be able to afford heating.
We do have Social Security that gets paid into, but it’s not a whole lot and if Republicans get their way, they will siphon the money meant for our generation in order to fund frivolous things like walls.
Made up scenario, are you joking? I can't even count the number of people I know personally who only care about short term satisfaction over their long term well being. There's an epidemic of people out there buying cars they can't afford, going on trips they can't afford, wracking up credit card debt and living paycheck to paycheck.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people not saving and then specifically expecting that the state "make up the difference".
My point (which I admit I didn't make well) is that this is a false scenario because, in my experience anyway, A) you pay for your own state pension through taxes while you are working and B) everyone gets a state pension regardless of their personal pension.
No one is expecting more from the state specifically for them because they didn't save enough... Are they? I'm sure that people, like me, believe the state pension should be enough to live on, but for everyone, not just those who squander their savings.
I definitely misunderstood you, my bad. I'm also personally frustrated how my parents lived carelessly and got to live their youth care free(which was never an option for me) and now are putting pressure on me to support them. I'm trying my best to setup my own child for success and trying to figure out if I will ever be done with the painful grind of my 9-6.
Google cycle of abuse.
It's harsh but trhe correct move.
The victims are the only ones who can change it before they turn into the villains.
I don't particularly want to sacrifice my small luxuries like a nice dinner or better quality tea, so I can save money for when I'm old and have significantly less energy than now. And that's on top of the negative outlook on the future. I've tried hard to be positive but it's really difficult when everything is going wrong
You sound like the rich
Says the guy typing on a phone that countless exploited workers made for a deplorably low wage. Typical.
You think we're different... because They need you to keep that stratification alive.
There is no Rich v Poor, we're all crabs in a bucket compared to the ones truly at the top, and without their intervention: this planet burns.
To be clear the planet will be fine, if it changes it's only it's habitability to humans and other current lifeforms.
The planet will recover like it always does from major celestial events, ice ages and super volcanos. Following those life will eventually come back with or without humans.
The planet deals on far larger timescales than we can comprehend as 100 year lifeforms.
To be clear, I'm not advocating for the deconstruction of the current ecosystem as we know it. We should reduce our impact, but I'm saying the planet will be fine regardless.
No one is concerned about the actual rock...
Objectively false statement, there are indeed people on this planet which are concerned about the state of the ecosystem and planets future.
Yes. The ecosystem. Not the actual rock. Nothing is threatening the literal planet itself except the eventual growth of the sun, and maybe an asteroid we don't know about.
I will admit my comment was a bit disengenuous because the previous commenter was referring to ecosystems recovering in the long term... But nonetheless I am confident that most people who want to protect the environment don't want to just ensure that AN ecosystem exists... They want to protect the ecosystems that exist today from destruction at the hands of humans.
No one's arguing that point in the slightest.
And
Both of these are your own words. Contradictory don't you think?
So many have grown past the juvenile cherry-pick & re-stitch routine, and yet you make it your own? So noble. Pitiful, but noble in its own way.
Got anything else, though? Maybe something resembling original thought patterns instead?
Hum, that's on the people that make the next gen. I cut my tubes when I was 20 exactly because I think the world is too shitty. My bloodline ends with me.
We're more than just our genes. We have what we have not just because of our direct ancestors but the communities and societies before us.
...and that's why. You say "we have what we have" as if we had a good life. If you're rich good for you but my life suck
Things have been much worse and can be worse again. I didn't have to choose which babies to drown and which to feed and instead have the internet and family planning options, so pretty good for three generations of progress by those metrics.
YOU, that is the righr word. So it is about you because there are ppl having to choose
True and their future families will have them to thank for making it through the hard times. Hopefully our actions can be so sober as to help too
I’m sorry but no… sure we should try to make a better world. But we’re not in this shit because of failings of personal responsibility.
10 companies produce 80% of the pollution in the world. Research after research shows that in “democratic” countries the poorer 90% have basically 0 influence in politics. We literally have no power to make any meaningful change.
The world will die and it’ll be the fault of a handful thousand families. Not ours.
Sure, we could’ve stopped them before it got to this point. But when? It’s been like this for thousands of years.
I don't know if those statistics are correct, with the ten companies and poor 90%.
If it is, your conclusion is “we have no chance in this system”
Mine is “the solution can't be companies or politics then”
Man, the people still have the power. That's why political systems try to separate us as best as they can. Creating diversity instead of unity. Everywhere.
If we wanted, we could change the world within a month. We just don't want to. Because we are fed the most stupid stories and ideas, as many as possible. From diets to skin colors to countries being evil by nature.
Most of humanity are just normal people. A few million of them are megalomaniacs. And they managed to make us all believe that they run the show. But we are running it for them. :)
The numbers might a bit different but it’s close enough to illustrate the point.
My conclusion is not “we have no choice”, but “choosing within the system will never solve anything”.
And if you really think we have the power… please illuminate me. Give an example of this.
If you really think we’re in this shit spot because people are lazy or unmotivated, then you don’t understand systems at all.
People act the way they act because of the system. They do what they do because they exist within capitalism. All the structures around us exist to maintain it. From the moment you’re born to the moment you die, your whole existence is directed by the system.
From marketing to union busting, from war to elections. It’s all made to serve the system.
You speak very idealistically about being able to have an impact. But how would that actually look like in our physical material reality? What can we ACTUALLY do that would even make a change?
I don't know. The French revolution? Hippies? Homeless communities? Revolutions have been done countless times, and they always started with no real chance to succeed.
What do you want me to say here. A plan to save the world? I have no idea where you are and what your situation is. That's the point.
We have all the networking, but nobody connects. The world is in the best spot ever, technologically, but we use it to divide. Where are you? What's you biggest issue? Let's pool together and see if there is a way out?
We all divide into groups, splinter-groups and even smaller units. Especially so since about 20 years ago. We should unite. How hard can it be?
Would you try?
Or would you rather debate me, telling me it's not possible?
I'd guess you'd pick the latter. Why is that?
I don’t want to debate anything. But you are rejecting reality. Why do you think we are so divided and diving deeper and deeper into useless rabbit holes?
Sure the internet is “great”, but why do you think it was invented and spread around the world?
Neoliberalism and post-modernism created and shaped an infinity of tools to control and manipulate us into being atomic neurotic incapable shits.
I do what I can, and I am not saying to give up. But if you base your struggle on idealisms and reject material reality for what it was and is, there is no chance. We have to understand the world and the systems of power and control fully to even have a chance of doing something.
Hoping everyone just “wakes up” through hearing the “right ideas” and “rises up” in a glorious movement is just… fantasy, it’s silly. It will never happen.
We have to study what worked before, and how the world changed from then to now, and try to find a new path that is different. But being always grounded in the actual reality of things. Understanding we have massive hurdles, that never existed before. And how those will shape our struggle.
Im sorry. What possible way is there to compete against trillion dollar companies financing every aspect of politics? You can't play that game. And nobody is coming around to save us all. You can only reject it and rebell. That's how change works. Has always worked. and will always work. You just don't want it enough yet.
You are playing a rigged game and expect to win, and you say I'm rejecting reality. It's you who needs to accept that people still have the power. And tell others. That's how revolutions happen. From the bottom up. Always.
Rejecting “the game” only works individually. Sure a couple dozen people can fuck off into the woods and live like hippies. But it can’t fix society. And society is what you’re calling a “game”.
I don’t want to live in the woods and reject humanity. I want to help society be good.
None of that makes sense.
Who do those companies sell to? All money in politics does is advertising. Why aren't we better informed regardless? Why aren't we better organized to stop them? We act helpless about where we can work but indebt ourselves for bullshit. Faster widgets, more content to ignore the world with, more drugs to ignore ourselves with.
It would be bullshit to ignore the antagonistic role capital plays, but we have to act for change to actually happen and it maybe acting so that beyond our life times we effect meaningful change. That's all I'm saying.
We do have to act, but it’s not voting or “buying” right. Capitalism is self-sustaining through many avenues. Marketing is a big one. And when there’s one company that sells something, you don’t have a choice.
The system is the issue, and the only solution is a systemic one. But if you study even just a bit of the history of western colonialism and the US empire, you realize that trying to enact that systemic change is basically suicidal.
What do you do when if you try to do something that will have an impact they kill and jail you?
We’re in a completely different era of totalitarianism. The powers that be control the world in ways absolute kings in the Middle Ages couldnt even dream of.
What is an actual material action you think we could take that would actually be effective…?
Trees can grow very quickly and its not unreasonable to believe you'll get to sit under the shade of one in your lifetime.
I mean, definitely, you're blessed if you do this. But also, you could just be playing the (very good) odds of self-interest through doing things to make the world a better place.
I think folks underestimate how quickly a new policy can yield change. To put a darker spin on it, consider the advent of fracking in the prior decade.
https://impactful.ninja/the-carbon-footprint-of-fracked-gas/
Imagine if we hadn't planted that tree back in 2014.
Fracking is like the exact opposite of planting a tree. How did you even come up with that insane counter example?
How naive do you have to be to honestly think this‽ 😱🤦🏼♂️😶🤦🏼♂️