Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
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Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
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Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
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I’ll add to this the lack of male only spaces throughout life. There used to be scouts, boys sports, working men’s clubs, veterans clubs etc. Almost all of it is mixed now because that was sexist. The opposite has happened in female areas with charity leagues, coding clubs, sports, gyms, etc.
Yeah, seeing this in the article:
made me hesitate a bit. Any man with a decent chunk of life experience knows that this sexism cuts both ways. Still, I sympathize with the primary message. I wouldn't want my children to fall into extremist politics either.
At the same time providing the fundamentals of critical thinking is becoming more and more challenging with how many different actors want to hijack our emotions for their own purposes and bypass rational thinking.
To add to this - the most important thing is the community. Yes, girls are given special organizations. But the cause of this rightward lurch is a world wide withdrawal from community. We're not spending time together and calling each other out on their shit. Rightwing nutjobs used to be known to be rightwing nutjobs and they were called out for being that way. They knew what they were and they knew the community disapproved. Now everyone is siloed at home on the internet with no social fabric to error check them and tell them that they are being pushed towards nutjobism.
When I need to unload my troubles as a man I go to the bathhouse and by troubles I mean great ropes of jizz.
What is the need for male-only spaces? I can see the need for positive male role models for sure, and those would've often been found in those male-only spaces you mentioned. But what is lacking from not having them be male-only?
Why do some women like to have women only spaces? I think different people have different environments they feel most comfortable in, where they can be the most self. I assume that is true for at least some men with men only spaces.
Let's be real -- often it's because of poorly behaved men.
Or maybe sometimes you want to hang out with people who share a similar experience of being a women?
You can hang out with a group of women and share that without being in a space that completely forbids men. But I get what you're saying.
At least for me the vibe in a male only, mixed or where I'm the only dude setting - are very different.
Because there are so many male dominated spaces? There are women-only gyms because many gyms have mostly men working out. Look at any basketball court in a park and count the number of women playing. There's always random dudes, but very few women. Look at any soccer field, baseball field, BBQ area, etc. These are huge public areas devoted mostly to things men want to do.
I say this as a dude who enjoys all of that. If women want their own baseball league or running club or whatever, it literally doesn't hurt me at all. Men don't need "men only" spaces because that's still the default for everything now. If some women show up to play basketball, that's totally fine. They may not be as strong but there are plenty of smaller dudes playing too. It makes no sense to exclude them.
You only mention physically intensive activities. Some men may have different interests.
So why would it make sense to exclude men?
Also, I'm not the best person to argue about it, since I personally don't really like male-only settings so I would not speak from my own experience. And in general I think our society profits more from mixed settings since they help to normalize relations between genders.
You're entirely correct, this guy's 'need' is completely isolated to himself, it's not a universal - I've never asked myself "wouldn't this be better if there were fewer women?", absolutely never occurred to me even.
he wants gender exclusivity because being around women makes him uncomfortable. Well buddy, that's not how society works lol. Maybe move to Oman or Qatar if they want genders defined like that.
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
Some dudes are just not comfortable around women, and they all seem to be downvoting comments. The funny thing is, these dudes would probably be thrown out of most "male" spaces (sports bars, basketball courts, weightlifting gyms) for being nuts.
Mental health and happiness.
It honestly depends how truthful you want to be. The first is men are allowed to talk about issues with other men without being judged for it. So it could be "I'm worried I don't make enough money for my family" they wouldn't want their family or family's friends around then. Could be "I'm having this sex issue". Could be "this one night stand sexually abused me and if I tell anyone she told me she will go public that I raped her when I was the victim!". Without men only spaces those conversations can't happen because you can't say "oh I'm going to," actually where? haha I can't even think of an example where a man can go to talk about sexual violence, thats how bad it is. But I meant "oh I'm going to go to this sexual violence clinic for men and it will be in secret so you don't know I'm going" it needs to be a casual place that allows for other conversations.
Now this is the controversial part that will divide people. I think most men simply just enjoy men only spaces some of the time. They feel less judged and they feel it's more friendly. I honestly think men only spaces are important to mens health because they can enjoy themselves and act "normal" they can act in a way that feels natural to them rather than acting the way women find socially acceptable.
Sounds like what you want is a non toxic non judging space. It doesn't have to be mens only.
I know what I want.
I have mixed group settings, I've even had me and a load of girls settings, I'm comfortable in them both and enjoy them immensely.
I think men and boys need male only spaces and it's fucked up that it is so frowned upon.
You've expressed what you want, but your reasons don't don't reflect positivity. They reflect the notion that women are somehow fundamentally other to you tlin a way men aren't, and you provide no reason to believe that to be true.
You know what you want. It's not at all clear that you understand what you need.
Many women don't feel empathy towards men. They were never expected to.
beginning to wonder if he's afraid of women or.... afraid of women.
Thank you for sharing that. I haven't had the same experiences. I don't feel the same sense of judgement or anything in mixed-gender spaces, but I won't discount those who do.
I have close friends of both genders with whom I'd talk about those kinds of issues with.
I am confused as to why there needs to be a "men's-only club" for some of those conversations to happen, though. Those generally aren't conversations I'd want to have where strangers can overhear, regardless of gender. So I would just call a friend to go somewhere private, likely outdoors, or somewhere like a car or someone's home.
In my area, I do believe there are men's-only therapy groups and the like, and I hope that that becomes the norm around the world as time progresses.
Unfortunately, I think the bias towards women's-only spaces being normalized and men's-only spaces being replaced with mixed-gendered spaces has been because of the history of men using those spaces to exclude women (e.g. from career opportunities), or from behaving inappropriately towards women in mixed-gendered spaces (such as gyms and swimming pools).
I think there is a lot of work to go into socializing young boys and young men. I would almost be worried that male-only spaces would be somewhere where men "Don't have to worry about that woke/Politically Correct shit anymore", and then eventually feel like that's how society should be.
There is definitely a place for male-only spaces, but as I've never felt the need for them, I was curious as to what others wanted them for. So, thank you for that.
you need men-only environments to be happy?
also you ask for sex advice at the gym, at the scouts, at the club?
Your need for gender exclusivity really is on you mate, please don't act like it's universal.
Not for gyms no. Uni-sex gyms are the best in my opinion and I would choose then over single sex. More people, more space, more machines, no point having men only gyms because I'm not really having convos and when I do it's just as likely to be men or women for something causal unless I'm asking people how many sets they got on the bench press.
I'm fairly certain the hidden secrets of girls who fancies who, and does she like me back all came up in scouts. That's all part of growing up. I certainly learnt a move or two from the rugby club and people got helped out on issues they were having with girls, finances, school, mental health, fitness, confidence, friendship. The rugby club was the biggest source of positivity I have ever seen in my life. Yet I had more than a few girls who knew nothing about it, never even met rugby players telling me it's "toxic"
I was very careful not to use the word universal. If I had to bet I would say confidently way more than 50% of men and boys would benefit from some male only spaces.
Let me ask, why are you so against men only spaces? Okay you don't want men only spaces, that I can accept. But why deny that to others, where are people going to go for issues I mentioned?
Because it's a fantastic waste of resources for reasons you either choose not to or cannot articulate lol. Having spent time in gender excluding MOS's, then spending time in integrated specialties, I realized it was absurd and puritanical in most cases.
because I don't want to live in Saudi Arabia or any other country that sexualizes or others gender to the point of building duplicate infrastructure to serve each. It's wasteful, immature and asinine.
Frankly, I don't care about your estimates of how many your wild ass guesses say it would benefit, it's not going to help society. In society, we all have to live together, there's no safe spaces we can run away to in order to escape whatever it is you're afraid of.
If you start down this road, when the nazis show up at your bar and say "oh we don't exclude women, we exclude the undermenchen" you should be comfortable knowing you created that situation.
Now, assholes... man, I wish, oh how I wish, we could just exclude assholes from the public sphere, but I don't get my wish, and neither should you.
I would have to disagree that men having access to mental health and help for domestic violence is a waste of resources but I guess we can't all be cunts. If you can't see that I guess you're beyond help.
Still never answered where guys go for issues.
As for men only social clubs, well its not a waste of resources because it will pay for itself like it has done in years gone by. There is value in it and it is paid for, that's how the economy works. Otherwise everything we do that isn't work or food is a waste of resources.
I'm absoultely not only about division of sexes I'm on about some small, in certain cases sexual divided areas that woukd improve mental health. But good strawman.
Well I'm glad you got all the answers to stuff. I guess my conversation with other men are pointless but seeing as you have all the answers and know there is no benefits (eventhough I have first and second hand proof it does).
If there are no safe spaces let's close down women only spaces then, they don't need domestic violence centres, we don't need prison we don't need police, not point worry about anything we all need to live together.
at the mens only hospital, or the men's only therapy building?
No one's trying to take away male access to mental health and help, cute strawman tho. Nothing about those even require the therapists to be gender specific, say nothing about the entire facility.
you have yet to explain how gender division improves mental health, it's not a strawman argument at all. you stay you want things, say they're important to your mental health, then do absolutely nothing to explain how that requires gender exclusive facilities.
I do love how you jump from "if I can't get mens only X, women shouldn't have protection from domestic violence".
did you really mean to say that bit aloud?
Why not just join a men's footy team? why do you need a men's only clubhouse? It's silly mate. Go join a monastery, I think you'd be happier.
You don't need a mens only hospital.
Mens only therapy could be good.
Yes they are. The only domestic violence centre in the country got closed by me because women were outside protesting. It got closed down and no one cares because its men.
Look up domestic violence how its been treated by governments and by feminist groups and your eyes will be opened.
Some therapy doesn't need to be gender specific. I'm not arguing that, but some does. The fact that people cannot accept male only spaces for anything is the issue. If people need help and feel more comfortable with a male therapist with other men only in the group, for any reason shouldn't that be allowed?
Because out of all this the thing that I really cannot ever get my head around is how no one doubts women needs men only space. But even to suggest that might need the same things, to suggest men need protection from domestic violence then you are sexist, an incel, a Nazi. I don't deny women should have women only spaces, but what I'm fighting for is men only spaces. You don't want that don't go. If that genuinely helps people and makes them happy why do you want to stop someone? Just think about that for a moment, why do you want to deprive someone of health and happiness?
Some people have dodgy knees, some people are old, some people don't like sport. Why aren't those people allowed the same camaraderie that is now only reserved for athletes?
I know how much support and help I have had in men only environments, how much guidance and growth I've had, how much fun I had. From scouts, sports, friends. I've also seen how much help other people had, seen people crying and gotten better after it. I know these things first hand and as well as that I have. I also have empathy, I can understand how a young boy with no grandparents and a dead dad, no male teachers in school and no friends might need male only spaces. They need that guidance and support. The truth of the matter is men only groups are different to mixed groups, they just are at least for huge amount of the male population. They have something you don't have elsewhere. Men and women are just different for most people and that's perfectly okay. But forcing people to only act a certain way isn't.
There is a debate to be had. But just as women benefit from women only spaces men might benefit from it too. Because sexual selection always plays a role in social dynamics, especially at that age. But I'm not sure it needs institutions for that, and that also isn't an argument for men only "good old boys clubs". More about good male (non toxic) role models.
What you get now are vile role models online that are actively pushing toxic masculinity or even fascism.
You can run a survey for yourself. Personally I have always longed for male-only spaces, and I say this while most of my friends are female. That's kinda the point.
Join a monastery then bud, no longer any need for longing.
society has sorted you out, take it and go instead of inflicting your gender phobias on the taxbase, paying for duplicate infrastructure just because you don't want to be around women is absurd.
Or go live in Saudi Arabia already.
Read the whole comment. I don't have many friends, and all the close ones are women. I can talk with them about many things, but sometimes I end up relying on the only lesbian one among them hoping that she's "male enough".
My comment is anecdotal, of course, you don't have to believe that many other people have sometimes the need of hanging out only with other men. But even among acquaintances who hang out in couples in a friend circle, it's habit that some weekend retreats are boys-only, girls-only.
lol you actually believe this?
surprise surprise surprise!
just a giant bucket of 'no, really?' every time you comment.
Replying to multiple comments of mine at the same time looks like a personal attack. But aside from this, I don't understand what do you want to accomplish.
Yes, and among women I know it's not done in bad faith. It just takes some patience to get them to care.
What if I told you that I don't have a car either. How would it be related to anything you know of me?
One reason is because young males bond differently when there are no females in the group. When there are females the males often compete with each other for the female's attention, rather than building strong bonds together.
Is that true even for young children, though?
I could see the bonding being different in different contexts though.
I came to say the same as many other replies. For older men, it doesn’t matter as much, they can simply create their own spaces, but for boys they really can’t, they are pushed into mixing in most situations. Boys are more boisterous, so need the organized outdoor spaces. They can’t get that male space from sleepovers like girls at that age do.
For another example, think of how a group of teenagers act on their own, now how does that change when you add an adult? It is obviously unhealthy for them to always be around an adult.
Of course they can get that space from sleepovers. Gaming interested boys have done that for decades - LAN parties, or nowadays the less physical Gaming over Discord or whatever. For sports-focused boys, of course things like soccer teams are way more important spaces.