this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2024
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A loud minority of Texans call for Independence, which is not really possible as far as I know, BUT could the Rest of the USA just kick another state (Not necessary Texas) out? Or is this also not possible?

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[–] [email protected] 138 points 9 months ago (3 children)

The US Constitution currently has no mechanism to break any individual State out of the Union. Throughout our history, this has been interpreted as a sign that the Union is perpetual, and not able to be dissolved. This got put to the test in our Civil War, where a bunch of states up and said "We're Leaving" and the Federal Government said "You can't just do that". They fought a war over it, and the Federal Government won, proving its position correct by force.

With that said, the US was founded as a government of the People, and so if the people want to carve out a way for States to leave, they must first establish a mechanism via amending the Constitution, which requires a 2/3 vote in both houses of Congress (or a Constitutional Convention) coupled with 3/4 of State Legislatures ratifying it.

There is a provision, though, to make States out of other States. Maine and West Virginia were both formed out of land that belonged to Massachusetts and Virginia.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Wonder though, does that mean states can combine?

[–] [email protected] 38 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Actually, yes, but that has never happened.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago

Yeah, because you're giving up federal power for... a bigger state budget? Not really a great trade.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

"By your ~~powers~~ states combined, I am Captain Planet!"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago
[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It's laid out very explicitly in the COTUS (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1):

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The funny thing is that during the civil war, West Virginia seceded from Virginia, and Congress voted to allow it and they were accepted into the union. There are a lot of people who argue that when that happened it was unconstitutional. However, it has never been tested, as far as I know.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

That's a new word. We have POTUS, FLOTUS, SCOTUS and now COTUS.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

That would almost imply the Confederacy had legally left the USA, and Wrst Virginia legally left the Confederacy and joined the Union. Basically you could say none of this was un constitutional if the Confederacy was not a part of the USA at the time.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I would be doing it a disservice to try and explain it myself, but there were a lot of legal theories on how they could justify WV without justifying the Confederacy leaving the union. It's an interesting topic.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Seems like it'd be easier, more honest and less "Jump through hoopy" to just say they left and we reconquered them. Unless you really don't want think states leaving is legal when it probably is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

You're mistaking the fact that I recognize a limitation of myself with something else.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

If what I said wasn't fairly accurate, there'd be no need for legal arguments so arcane you don't feel capable of describing them accurately.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

One thing I am pretty good at is recognizing blatantly bad logically fallacious arguments on the internet, such as the classic "false dichotomy."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

No, you clearly aren't, especially if you think this is a false dichotomy. I'm sorry, you were right about your limitations.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You could just pass an amendment...

But specifically for kicking a state out I don't think the bar is that high. If the legislature and executive agreed then it could be done very quickly.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Oh, but there are all sorts of details to work out....

  • are citizens of the state no longer US citizens?
  • if so, what happens to their Social Security? Medicare? I don't want to keep paying for those freeloaders
  • if they treat it like renouncing citizenship, they make those people pay taxes on all their assets and 401(k) holdings before leaving
  • Do armed forces members from those states now get kicked out of the US armed forces and go to the new state's armed forces?
  • Does the new state get to take over any military bases and Federal buildings?
  • Can the rest of us build a wall on the border and make them pay for it?

There's a lot to iron out. The Brits got screwed with Brexit, and they weren't even leaving a country.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

it was worse than that and even dumber the UK was a founding member and had extra perks. That other EU members didn't get and they threw all that away. Even if they do join back they will never get that deal again.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Even if they do join back they will never get that deal again.

and yet it's still the most logical thing for them to do, security, trade and otherwise. it'll hurt a bit, that sting is pride lol.... but it'd still be the best thing for both the UK and EU.

otherwise eventually I see Ireland unifying and Scotland going to the EU lol.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

Presumably those have been worked out in the bill Congress passed.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

No lol your second statement is literally just wrong. The only way to do anything like this would be through an Amendment, which equated to literally changing the rules bc the current rules do not allow for it.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 9 months ago

Is there something specifically saying you can't?

No?

Question answered.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

"Just" passing an amendment requires more than 75% of states to ratify the amendment. So even if all of Congress decided nuts to Delaware, we're moving them out, it would still go to the state of legislatures to be formalized

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Oh no the amendment is for if a state wants to leave. Since there's no standard around kicking a state out at all, it defaults to 50+1 votes in Congress and a President willing to enforce it

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This is literally just wrong dude

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago
[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I expect at the very least you'd also need scotus to agree, though if legislative and executive are both willing to ignore them then ...profit?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yeah that's the checks and balances. SCOTUS literally has no power without Congress or the President.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, but it wouldn't be "legal" unless scotus agreed it was, even if it happened anyway.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

No. SCOTUS does not have to agree to everything. In fact there's no Constitutional power for them to take a law up for review without a case. They gave themselves that power.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I find it implausible there would be no challenge, so scotus would have to agree either passively by refusing to take the case or actively by taking it in order for its legality to be settled.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

And I find it implausible that anybody listens to SCOTUS if we've gotten to the point that at least half of Congress is kicking a state out. It's certainly not a normal political environment at that point.